Oracy in state schools

Doodledog I would refer you to your post of today at 13.44.

Oops! That was a typo, sorry.

I think oracy means more than just being able to speak clearly and grammatically. Does it not also mean being able to think logically, muster an argument and present it convincingly?

Two of the best communicators, in my opinion, are ex-SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon and Rail Union boss Mick Lynch. Both speak clearly and grammatically and have distinctive accents which are still easy to understand. They respond to criticism without getting rattled, remaining civil even when provoked.

I agree with some of their views and disagree with others, but I do admire their ability to express their views with such clarity and without resorting to meaningless cliches and slogans.

It is all very well to talk about about learning how to speak, but, do you not think that the greater influence would be to teach speaking properly? It would also be much appreciated if some sort of refresher course in the English language could be provided to those people who appear on television as presenters, of whatever type .

End of Gripe

varian

I think oracy means more than just being able to speak clearly and grammatically. Does it not also mean being able to think logically, muster an argument and present it convincingly?

Two of the best communicators, in my opinion, are ex-SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon and Rail Union boss Mick Lynch. Both speak clearly and grammatically and have distinctive accents which are still easy to understand. They respond to criticism without getting rattled, remaining civil even when provoked.

I agree with some of their views and disagree with others, but I do admire their ability to express their views with such clarity and without resorting to meaningless cliches and slogans.

I agree, varian on all counts. It is definitely about more than speaking clearly in whatever accent. The confidence comes from knowing that you have the vocabulary and linguistic ability to make your own case and (where necessary) see the flaws in the argument of your opponent.

Sturgeon and Lynch are great examples. Like you, I prefer the policies of one to the other, but both are excellent speakers who can command a room and make a case clearly.

TiggyW

Missdeke - I agree with your point about young tv presenters. Oracy has been on the school curriculum for years, so I’m not sure how these people get their jobs. Probably something to do with equality and diversity…
I agree that it’s important to be able to conduct presentations nowadays, but for some children, it’s terrifying! Recently our 6 year old grandson was expected to prepare homework to deliver a presentation on the Great Fire of London (if possible using a computer!) I’m sure there’ll be plenty of parents who wouldn’t know where to start (even if they had the time or the inclination).
On the subject of working class politicians - I’d rather listen to Angela Rayner than bumbling Boris Johnson or Victorian Jacob Rees-Mogg any day!
It’s interesting that no-one mentions Scottish politicians - I love their accents, but they’re very difficult to understand sometimes.

Not every child has the confidence to speak to a large audience and I don't think it's right to force them, but they should all be tought how to speak grammatically correctly. I hope your grandson didn't find it too traumatising.

Interesting you should mention Angela Rayner, she was on the tv yesterday and said that her mother couldn't read or write and she herself had never looked at a book before she started school. She also had to have speech therapy so she has done well for herself. I don't object to people speaking in the accents that they were brought up with and nobody wants to go back to all the plummy accents of the BBC of yesteryear but surely anyone in a public speaking should at least be grammatically correct.

Recently our 6 year old grandson was expected to prepare homework to deliver a presentation on the Great Fire of London (if possible using a computer!) I’m sure there’ll be plenty of parents who wouldn’t know where to start (even if they had the time or the inclination).

Twinkl, TiggyW!!
www.twinkl.co.uk/

Oops, that is the Welsh curriculum, TiggyW but it has very good resources for helping with presentations. There is probably an English equivalent.

Callistemon21 twinkl.co.uk much in use in English schools as well.

Thanks Mollygo

And by Grannies who are asked to help with presentations! 😀

If verbal skills have been taught for years then why do so many kids use the word "like" every other word? If I was interviewing someone for a job and they kept saying LIKE I would not be happy.

kjmpde
Same reason as people start every sentence with so or well. It’s just what’s popular currently.

kjmpde

If verbal skills have been taught for years then why do so many kids use the word "like" every other word? If I was interviewing someone for a job and they kept saying LIKE I would not be happy.

Interesting kjmpde you talk about interviews. A year or so ago on GN I spoke of how my job was to do practice interviews in Year 6 to offer support and tips for children moving on to senior schools. (This valuable practice was ridiculed by a GN no longer posting!)

Anyway, LIKE was one of the things I advised them to avoid saying, or at least to cut back on. One young lad got a bit mixed up, and stuttered "I l..l..l ENJOY playing football." !!

Too many parents of all backgrounds spend too much time on their phones, I see it every day, pushing the buggy and phone in one hand. They make no eye contact with their child, nor converse with them. Oral skills are a two way thing from birth.

'Well' at the start of a sentence gives the speaker time to marshal their thoughts.
'Like' at the end of a sentence is a localised way of speaking. But, as with Eastender-speak, has spread to other areas.
As for Hansard correcting grammar, will it be putting adverbs in where the MP used an adjective, or making sure the singular subject doesn't have a plural verb ending? Maybe the Speaker or Dep Speaker could correct the MP as they are speaking! Pedants' Corner would need its own website.

Long neglected, the ability to communicate has declined in recent years, there is a massive difference between different children a 16 yrs. Some communicate with grunts, at the other end of the spectrum are really nice mature teens you can actually have a conversation with. Working at Waitrose we have a lot of 16 yr + part timers, they are obviously chosen for their ability to do the job, they are lovely to work with, shy at first but very quickly find their feet.

In my opinion communication and confidence is the biggest difference between private and state educated children. If we really want to reduce the social divide improve discipline and communication in state schools, will changes be made to enable this?, NO because parents will stop it happening

They will not back the teachers up, even if the teachers do try to improve the system.

My various grandchildren have all had to give presentations publicly whilst they were in primary school and also in secondary school. Just part of the curriculum, something that is expected. Some are better of it than others but they all can do it without being particularly nervous. We all have more or less the same accent so that isn’t an issue here.
When I was at school you were expected to more or less just listen and public presentations were definitely not on the agenda. I actually like public speaking but I was well into adulthood before I was able to do it happily.

In my opinion communication and confidence is the biggest difference between private and state educated children. If we really want to reduce the social divide improve discipline and communication in state schools, will changes be made to enable this?, NO because parents will stop it happening.
Good post, Katie59.
And NO, because with 620,000 additional pupils flooding the state system (if Starmer abolishes fee paying schools 🤣 ), resources will be at breaking point, if they aren't already.

Some communicate with grunts, at the other end of the spectrum are really nice mature teens you can actually have a conversation with

The ones who communicate with grunts may be perfectly nice too. It's a teenage peculiarity.

In fact, the nice mature teens may be quite different at home than when they're out. It's often the case that other parents and grandparents say how lovely, chatty and interesting to converse with your teenage child/grandchild can be, unlike their own - who may be lovely and chatty when visiting your house 😯

They may be quite different at school or when they emerge from the teenage tunnel.

Harry Enfield and Kathy Burke nailed it as Kevin and Perry.

The best practise for speaking publicly is debating. The best political speakers turn out to have been involved in debating at school then in further/higher education. As well as speaking voice/accent/voice volume etc it requires marshalling thoughts and presenting them logically. All very valid skills.

Well if this is a true example of a private education and speaking I think state schools are doing OK
www.google.com/search?q=boris+pepa+pigbooking.com&sxsrf=AB5stBgwtX93DeAsINflQlvNb-jr6OEzdA%3A1688817810658&ei=klCpZIHfJ-HYkdUP6Ia0iAE&ved=0ahUKEwiB8MbNiP__AhVhbKQEHWgDDREQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=boris+pepa+pigbooking.com&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIFCAAQogRKBAhBGAFQzAdYzAdgoBZoAXAAeACAAbcBiAG3AZIBAzAuMZgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:f7d5af08,

State schools are doing OK, but when a new boss takes over there are always changes.
So Speaking and Listening with become Oracy.
The National Curriculum will become
A curriculum for the digital age
Et al

Change always costs money and isn't always for the better.

I have never criticised state schools, and I think they do more than OK with what they have.
It is smaller classes and more resources they need, not some fancy new changes to the curriculum.

Glorianny Boris is no more typical of a pupil from a private school than is a delinquent yobbo from the London comprehensive I attended!

Joseann

Glorianny Boris is no more typical of a pupil from a private school than is a delinquent yobbo from the London comprehensive I attended!

Bill Turnbull was an Old Etonian.

He was nothing like Boris Johnon.

I couldn't make one of Bill's last presentations on bees, unfortunately, something I regret.