Who hates the NHS

Also, MOnica, had it passed you by that the tories drastically cut funding to the NHS in real terms since 2010?

There are many ways of doing this. If the French and Germans can do that with less capital investment then there is clearly something to be learnt from them

Did you follow my link, MOnica?
Where is this belief that France & Germany have less capital investment than the UK coming from?

growstuff the measure of the success of a health system is whether it is serving its patients and staff efficiently and well.

There are many ways of doing this. If the French and Germans can do that with less capital investment then there is clearly something to be learnt from them.

One of the key indicators of a country’s health is life expectancy from birth. 2019 data from the World Health Organisation (WHO) placed the UK 17th out of 39 European countries. This puts the UK behind similar-sized economies such as Austria, Germany, France, Spain, and Italy – as well as the Scandinavian countries Norway, Sweden and Finland, and smaller economies such as Cyprus, Malta, and Ireland.

The nations ranked below the UK tended to be in Eastern Europe, including former members of the USSR, with Ukraine ranked lowest at 73.02 years. bylinetimes.com/2022/07/11/how-britains-healthcare-system-stopped-being-the-best-in-the-world/

The above report was based on the report issued by The Commonwealth Fund www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly

In their report where they discuss Avoidable Deaths and 10-Year Reduction in Avoidable Mortality Across Countries, we come last but 1, only the US does worst. Surely that is a clear sign the NHS is failing and needs reform

DiamondLily

It all needs root and branch reform. It goes from bad to farce.

Not sure any party will be brave enough to do it though.🥴

Start from the bottom up. It's not serving staff or patients at the moment.

And, yes, I am talking from experience.🙁

Interesting.

This is a link to a Thread reader compilation of a twitter thread reporting on evidence from Monday's Covid Inquiry session (you don't have to subscribe to twitter to be able to access it)

It includes a video clip of part of the evidence of the CEO of The Health Foundation, Next was the CEO of The Health Foundation. A politically neutral, independent research body that provides data and analysis on the state of the UK's health and health systems.

Note what she says about UK capital investment in the NHS compared with Germany and France (2 systems which have been praised on this thread)

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1681625486395424771.html

M0nica

growstuff None of us are experts, we see a failing health service. It is failing staff and patients. We need those who are experts in the field, who have studied the operation of health systems for decades, those with experience of foreign systems, we need technology experts, plus input from those working in the service. It might even be an idea to talk to patients and bodies representing them.

You flatter me when you think I encompass all the expertise mentioned above so can come up with solutions. But i can't.

Do you ever read any of the King's Fund reports?

This morning I received an appointment letter for my routine 2 yearly Breast screening service.
It stated if you have any changes ie Pacemaker please let them know
I now have one.
I emailed them with the info.. Within 8 minuted I received a reply, noted with thanks.
That worked..!!

growstuff None of us are experts, we see a failing health service. It is failing staff and patients. We need those who are experts in the field, who have studied the operation of health systems for decades, those with experience of foreign systems, we need technology experts, plus input from those working in the service. It might even be an idea to talk to patients and bodies representing them.

You flatter me when you think I encompass all the expertise mentioned above so can come up with solutions. But i can't.

DiamondLily

It all needs root and branch reform. It goes from bad to farce.

Not sure any party will be brave enough to do it though.🥴

You write it needs root and branch reform. What do you suggest?

I'm not sure that asking the woman in the street what she thinks should be done with something like the NHS is helpful, and it is particularly unhelpful to suggest that unless we have a solution we shouldn't moan about the problems.

I have no clue about the pragmatics of running a massive organisation such as the NHS - how could I have? What I do know is that I support the principle of the strong paying for the weak (and the well for the ill), that I see the funding of that as the responsibility of governments, and that I do not accept that it is somehow the fault of all of us that we generally live longer than before.

Yes, the NHS can now do far more than it once could, and yes, we have an aging population, so demands on it are greater. But this could have been foreseen decades ago, and funding issues should never have been allowed to become a problem. Governments have allowed this to happen, and governments should sort it out.

It all needs root and branch reform. It goes from bad to farce.

Not sure any party will be brave enough to do it though.🥴

Until there has been a major study looking into the causes of the number of failures that taken place and highlighted the area where everything is working very well. Until comparative studies have been made comparing the UK with health systems overseas. we cannot possibly know whether we have an efficient cost-effective health system.

But your current inability to believe that there is any fault in the health system reminds me of those still saying that our water industry is currently being run well and efficiently and the system of governance needs no improvement.

So how would national reorganisation help?

What about all the systems which do work well?

As I'm sure you know, massive reorganisation nearly always causes problems as people need to be retrained to become familiar with new systems and protocols.

There have been umpteen threads about the NHS on GN, but the kind of changes people come up with are about charging for appointments. Nobody ever suggests real organic change.

I like e-consult. I agree that the 8am queues were awful, both for the reasons described, and also as if you have been up all night because of illness, having to set an alarm to catch the queue is likely to do more harm than good.

I used it recently and got a callback within the hour to check my availability to speak to a doctor, and again to ask for a FBC because of some test results that pointed in a direction different from the condition for which I was being treated. This time the callback was to arrange the blood count, after which I got a text from a GP saying that she had sent a prescription to the chemist. So much easier than queues and phone calls, or surgery consultations.

I never liked the telephone consultations that came before the new system. They are useless for people at work (unless they have a private office) or those who share living space with no privacy (and even then, people don't always want to have private conversations in front of others). If e-consult frees up time for face-to-face consultations for those who need them, so much the better.

A lot of localised issues in healtth authorities all over the country adds up to a national problem.

How about the probkems with the maternity units? Shrewsbury, Kent, Nottingham, Staffordshire. Are those 'localised' problems national enough?

ronib I agree with your point about men accessing healthcare.

MOnica So what did you expect from a rehabilitation package? Was it online during lockdown? When I did mine, there were people who had had bypasses and could hardly walk. Some had breathing problems. There were about 15 of us and we had circuit training tasks. About 3 or 4 people really struggled with them, but we had individual progress cards, so it was the improvement which mattered. The important thing was that people did as much as they could.

The reason I tend to get what I want from my GP is because I take responsibility for my health and try to work with the GP as a partner. I don't go to the GP very often - only when I know I can't buy over-the-counter meds or do something myself. I get called up every year for a diabetic check up and many of my appointments are follow ups from that. I don't initiate the appointments myself. I've also had follow ups from breast cancer surgery over the last year - again initiated by the hospital or GP.

Yes, I do think the e-consult system is better than the 8am queues. The only people who could queue up were the ones who didn't work or have family commitments. Triaging means the receptionists don't get bullied by the "regulars" and people are prioritised according to clinical need.

You are still describing localised issues and haven't explained how a nationwide reorganisation could have prevented any of them.

MaizieD

^Effectively the base budget is slashed to fund the pay award, and the only way to pay is to employ less staff.^

Which is exactly what the govt. is aiming for, isn't it? Fewer staff = greater inefficiency, more mistakes made and more staff leaving or going on long term sick because of the stress.

Death to the NHS through budget cuts and let's welcome in a service run by the private sector..

Or, in reality, leave the next government with as much c..p to deal with as possible.

Monica some men find it difficult to even make a doctor’s appointment so I am pleased that a system which encourages a more informed and rational approach is an improvement for some men in accessing medical care. Can’t win them all it seems.

Effectively the base budget is slashed to fund the pay award, and the only way to pay is to employ less staff.

Which is exactly what the govt. is aiming for, isn't it? Fewer staff = greater inefficiency, more mistakes made and more staff leaving or going on long term sick because of the stress.

Death to the NHS through budget cuts and let's welcome in a service run by the private sector..

growstuff The rehabilitation package was an excellent mix of exercises and walking to build up those who had had a trouble free bypass operation. But not suitable for someone who had been in hospital 8 weeks, had 4 operations, had tubes in his lungs, which had permanently damaged them and elsewhere throughout that time and had lost three stone in weight.

How you can read about the problems in maternity units, Shrewsbury and Nottingham, to name but 2, read the constant stories of administrative cock-ups that members post on GN. Read what IwasaMaidofKent above and say and still dismiss them as local problems within hospitals/GP surgeries. and not see that the nationwide spread of these problems deonstrates the deep failings in the NHS, I do not know. Then I read your dismissive remarks about patients at your surgery who have problems with the new consultations system.
I think those who didn't like it are the ones who used to queue up outside the surgery at 8am, while those on the way to work or taking children to school couldn't get appointments because they'd all been taken. There were also some who didn't like the technology and others who who didn't know how to describe their symptoms. So thats all right then, just chuck them on the rubbish heap. You are OK, you know how to describe your symptoms and get the results you want.

Chocolatelovinggran

I am intrigued as to where these savings are to come from to pay for wage rises. I know nothing about health, but have knowledge of schools and these economies have already been made. The MP's pay award was not funded by economies in the House of Parliament as far as I know. Does anyone know differently?

Cuts to NHS services will be made if it goes ahead Chocolatelovinggran, it works exactly the same way as it does in education. Effectively the base budget is slashed to fund the pay award, and the only way to pay is to employ less staff.

I am intrigued as to where these savings are to come from to pay for wage rises. I know nothing about health, but have knowledge of schools and these economies have already been made. The MP's pay award was not funded by economies in the House of Parliament as far as I know. Does anyone know differently?

My surgery has been using a similar system for about a year. Personally, I liked it, but I think that might have been because I'd worked out what to write to get what I wanted. I know that it hasn't been popular. I think those who didn't like it are the ones who used to queue up outside the surgery at 8am, while those on the way to work or taking children to school couldn't get appointments because they'd all been taken. There were also some who didn't like the technology and others who who didn't know how to describe their symptoms.

The surgery abandoned two similar systems and has now adopted e-consult. I'll wait and see what it's like.

Growstuff the local surgery is greatly improved so let’s hope more can be too. E consult reviews are very poor so why? It is an ongoing process towards better ways of access.