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Who hates the NHS

(295 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Sat 01-Jul-23 21:08:03

According to Kuenssberg the British have a love/hate relationship with the NHS.

I would argue that it probably the most beloved of all our public services.

It saved my life and my husbands.

MaizieD Thu 20-Jul-23 07:59:12

Norah

MaizieD

If I'm interpreting this correctly, the figures that the CEO gave were that, in 2019 (or by 2019, it's not quite clear), the UK capital spend was £70billion less than Germany and £40billion less than France

Are population numbers considered in leveling the spend?

Populations of Germany at 83.4 million, the United Kingdom at 67.4 million, and France at 65.6 million.

Germany population 83 million spends £70billion more
France population very similar to the UK at 65.6 million, spends £40 billion more.

I really don't see what there is to challenge in those figures.

ronib Thu 20-Jul-23 08:44:36

MaizieD In Germany retirees pay quite a large amount each month for health care. 250 euros per month for standard and quite a bit more if private healthcare added on. France has a complicated system where payments are made and then reclaimed as a percentage I believe. Don’t know if this applies to retirees.

Iam64 Thu 20-Jul-23 08:46:59

Well said MauzieD

Jaxjacky Thu 20-Jul-23 09:11:30

I believe retirees still pay ronib in France, with an option to take out a mutuelle (insurance) as everyone else does.

MaizieD Thu 20-Jul-23 09:21:05

ronib

MaizieD In Germany retirees pay quite a large amount each month for health care. 250 euros per month for standard and quite a bit more if private healthcare added on. France has a complicated system where payments are made and then reclaimed as a percentage I believe. Don’t know if this applies to retirees.

ronib, This argument has been trotted out many times on NHS threads. It is irrelevant.

The relevant point is that these countries spend far more on health services than does the UK, wherever the money comes from. That is why they are better.

The NHS has been kept short of cash ever since 2010. It is not surprising that it is in a mess now. Changing the system to make it more like the French or German ones wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if it still meant that the over all spending on the NHS was no more than it is now.

The tories would love it, though, as people who see money coming out of their income to contribute to the NHS would complain even more about the poor service they are paying for...

MaizieD Thu 20-Jul-23 09:23:18

P.S. The figures were posted somewhere on this thread and showed that France and German state spending alone (so that is before the individuals' contributions) is more per head than is the UK's.

Witzend Thu 20-Jul-23 09:30:05

Not me, but then I’ve been lucky enough not to need it very often at all, and when I recently did, with a vengeance, I absolutely couldn’t fault the care I received - from the ambulance crew, to very nearly 3 weeks in hospital.
I know I was probably lucky in those too, though.

ronib Thu 20-Jul-23 09:39:12

MaizieD I have at last understood! I shall try to remember the point. I think Amanda Pritchard has bought into the mantra that our Nhs delivers the best bang for the bucks. This mindset needs to change.

Doodledog Thu 20-Jul-23 09:39:21

The tories would love it, though, as people who see money coming out of their income to contribute to the NHS would complain even more about the poor service they are paying for...

'Complain' is an ambiguous word though. If you mean 'show dissatisfaction so that the NHS can be more easily replaced' it is one thing, but if you mean 'are dissatisfied so the government has to make improvements or risk losing support' it is another.

The NHS, as we are always being told, belongs to all of us. People 'complaining' because they can't see a GP, or because they have to wait months or years for operations can, or should, be a force for change. If the public remain passive it is far more likely that the government will continue to spend less and reduce the service further.

Speaking out against cuts is neither disloyal to the NHS nor somehow playing into the hands of the Tories. Also, if income tax does not fund spending, what would happen if it were abolished? We saw the economy crash after the Truss/Kwarteng tax-cutting budget - that doesn't suggest that taxation doesn't matter.

Not only that, but (rightly or wrongly), people are told that the reason most of us pay income tax is to fund things like Health and Education. Whether that is true, done so that there is less resistance to it, or something else, that is what most people believe. So yes, if we see a huge chink of our earned income go on tax and don't feel we are getting what we are supposed to be paying for, we will 'complain'.

pascal30 Thu 20-Jul-23 10:05:53

I had a tooth extracted at a beautiful NHS facility yesterday where I was referred by my private dentist and it was free.. don't know quite how that works but I'm not complaining.. the dentist was wonderful

MaizieD Thu 20-Jul-23 10:11:47

Well, Dd, perhaps 'complain' was the wrong word.

There's criticism and there's constructive criticism. But even constructive criticism is no help if there is no money to rectify the area being criticised.

I'd agree that the NHS probably needs a massive exercise in identifying how it could be improved, including cutting waste and improving inefficient administration, but it would be a very costly exercise and any proposed solutions could well be stymied by the fact that there is no political will to spend the money needed to carry them out.

In the meantime, there are obvious problems, like desperate staff shortages and lack of equipment which, if rectified, could well drive enough improvement to silence much of the complaints. But they, too, need investment which is not forthcoming and are unlikely to be so under the current government. (Nor, I'm sad to say, does it look as though Labour would do any better)

Doodledog Thu 20-Jul-23 13:34:11

I wasn't being picky about the word, but about the idea that complaining (or however that is phrased) is a negative thing to do, and that the Tories would be pleased to see more complaints.

I think that the only reason the Tories haven't totally dismantled the NHS is that they know that people would absolutely complain if they did so, and that the knowledge that the voting public is dissatisfied with the current state of affairs is what will keep it limping along one way or another.

I agree that what we need is more money, and also that there is no political will to provide that currently. However, that will may resurface if it is a case of finding the money or losing elections for years to come.

Norah Thu 20-Jul-23 16:27:08

MaizieD

Norah

MaizieD

If I'm interpreting this correctly, the figures that the CEO gave were that, in 2019 (or by 2019, it's not quite clear), the UK capital spend was £70billion less than Germany and £40billion less than France

Are population numbers considered in leveling the spend?

Populations of Germany at 83.4 million, the United Kingdom at 67.4 million, and France at 65.6 million.

Germany population 83 million spends £70billion more
France population very similar to the UK at 65.6 million, spends £40 billion more.

I really don't see what there is to challenge in those figures.

I wasn't attempting to challenge you.

I was wondering if it was somewhat level - I wondered if population was accounted for in the numbers. Simple question.

MaizieD Thu 20-Jul-23 17:44:16

Norah

MaizieD

Norah

MaizieD

If I'm interpreting this correctly, the figures that the CEO gave were that, in 2019 (or by 2019, it's not quite clear), the UK capital spend was £70billion less than Germany and £40billion less than France

Are population numbers considered in leveling the spend?

Populations of Germany at 83.4 million, the United Kingdom at 67.4 million, and France at 65.6 million.

Germany population 83 million spends £70billion more
France population very similar to the UK at 65.6 million, spends £40 billion more.

I really don't see what there is to challenge in those figures.

I wasn't attempting to challenge you.

I was wondering if it was somewhat level - I wondered if population was accounted for in the numbers. Simple question.

Well, it isn't level. France and Germany spend far more and that's before any contribution from citizens is taken into account. The figures were posted much earlier on this thread.

MaizieD Thu 20-Jul-23 17:50:01

Apologies, the comparative figures for France and Germany weren't posted earlier. It must have been on another thread. I do't have time to look for them ATM.

Fleurpepper Thu 20-Jul-23 17:53:50

pascal30

I had a tooth extracted at a beautiful NHS facility yesterday where I was referred by my private dentist and it was free.. don't know quite how that works but I'm not complaining.. the dentist was wonderful

I am confused- why did your private dentist not extract the tooth him/herself?

pascal30 Thu 20-Jul-23 18:00:00

Fleurpepper

pascal30

I had a tooth extracted at a beautiful NHS facility yesterday where I was referred by my private dentist and it was free.. don't know quite how that works but I'm not complaining.. the dentist was wonderful

I am confused- why did your private dentist not extract the tooth him/herself?

I don't know and this is the second time this has happened in the past year. She refers patients to this NHS facility for extractions. Most of the patients I saw there were teenagers. I'm confused too... but jolly pleased that I haven't had to pay

Fleurpepper Sun 23-Jul-23 09:21:06

pascal30

Fleurpepper

pascal30

I had a tooth extracted at a beautiful NHS facility yesterday where I was referred by my private dentist and it was free.. don't know quite how that works but I'm not complaining.. the dentist was wonderful

I am confused- why did your private dentist not extract the tooth him/herself?

I don't know and this is the second time this has happened in the past year. She refers patients to this NHS facility for extractions. Most of the patients I saw there were teenagers. I'm confused too... but jolly pleased that I haven't had to pay

Oh for sure, and I am glad for you too. But you see, there is a problem there. Great for individuals who are beneficiaries, but ...

The two systems are supposed to be totally separate. In the old days, there were some very dodgy 'alliances' between the two- and the loopholes were supposed to have been closed. But evidence shows that they are not.

The private sector still allows people to jump queues, get seen early and simple things done privately. But so often, referred back to NHS- still cutting the queue. And when things are done in a private hospital, and things go wrong, again, back to NHS to clear up the (very expensive) mess.

Many of our friends and relatives were delighted with their private insurance and treatment and very critical of NHS. Then they got older, got a few health issues that were costly to manage - premiums shot up so high and said conditions excluded! And then what?

One friend who had to give up her Private cover due to massively rising costs, paid herself to see her private Consultant, as she no longer had private cover. Triple by-pass required- but he told her he would do it on NHS as she had paid to see him privately to cut queue. Done the next week.

Happens all the time.

nanna8 Sun 23-Jul-23 14:14:57

Sounds exactly the same as here in Australia. Plus there is a very large ‘gap’ payment if you go private.