Can a woman have a penis?

Gossamerbeynon1945

I think Robert Winston said it best (expert). He said "No-one can change sex", it's in every cell of your body", or words to that effect.

True, Gossamerbeynon. That is the biological reality from someone who definitely knows what he is talking about.

Why not is probably that it wouldn't have suited Stonewall, or the misogynists who saw an opportunity to dominate the women they saw as getting above ourselves by having careers and wanting to engage with them on equal terms.

I think Robert Winston said it best (expert). He said "No-one can change sex", it's in every cell of your body", or words to that effect.

Doodledog,
I wonder what would have happened if, instead of the TWAW mantra, there had been a campaign to have transpeople recognised as belonging to their own sex but feeling like someone in the opposite one. So transwomen would be recognised and accept themselves as men, but men who wear dresses and whatever else from the stereotypes of what it means to be a woman they choose. That would mean that they used men's facilities, didn't insist on trying on clothes in women's changing rooms or using women's showers in swimming baths. The same would apply to transmen in reverse. Both sexes would compete against others of their sex in sport, and appear as members of their sex in statistics.
IMO (I have no statistics,) that would probably have suited most transpeople. Why not?
How many people were interested in the existence of transpeople? How many who were aware of their existence, saw them as any kind of a threat?
It wasn’t until the harmful actions of a few TIM, and the rabid and violent demonstrations of TRA that most people really became aware of the existence of people who had sought medical treatment to change the way their body appeared and were living as a different gender from their natal sex.
Suddenly, faced with a surge of males who decided that simply saying they ‘feel’ like a woman entitled them to take female jobs, compete in female competitions, use female safe spaces, and then the ensuing violence from some of the TIM and definitely from TRA, is it surprising that females feel threatened and see the need to demand that female spaces, (including prisons), female races and jobs are not for males.

Thank you for the explanation Rosie

I do want to accept trans women under the umbrella of women but I wasn't aware of the distinction that a space implies

Good post Doodledog

VioletSky I don't agree with the use of trans woman rather than transwoman. Used as separate words trans is an adjective qualifying the word woman as in tall, short, fat, thin etc and no man is a subset of women. Transwoman is a noun that denotes a male person who presents as a woman. A very different thing. You're right of course that for their own sake transpeople's birth sex is very important in the realms of medical care. Men and women often have very different symptoms for the same medical problem, and that's without the sex specific conditions.

I wonder what would have happened if, instead of the TWAW mantra, there had been a campaign to have transpeople recognised as belonging to their own sex but feeling like someone in the opposite one. So transwomen would be recognised and accept themselves as men, but men who wear dresses and whatever else from the stereotypes of what it means to be a woman they choose. That would mean that they used men's facilities, didn't insist on trying on clothes in women's changing rooms or using women's showers in swimming baths. The same would apply to transmen in reverse. Both sexes would compete against others of their sex in sport, and appear as members of their sex in statistics.

That would have kept support from those already supportive of transpeople, and would probably have gained support from those who hadn't thought much about it before the campaign began.

The whole 'TWAW No Debate' thing is so obviously anti-women that it has alienated many of those who were previously supportive, and probably prevented others from lending their support too.

I guess it's too late now, as the genie is out of the bottle, but I feel that Stonewall overplayed its hand and lost a valuable opportunity to make the lives of genuine transpeople much easier.

I've always said trans woman, and that the distinction matters

It's important that we differentiate for our sake and theirs

We need fair sports, safe spaces and protection from men who will say anything to access vulnerable women.

They need appropriate medical care, there will be medical issues that they have that relate to their birth sex

In some circles I'd probably be torn to shreds for saying that distinction is necessary... That the trans distinction must remain

But there are so many areas where we can just say yes, I accept you, I respect you and I will use your pronouns.

I expect realistically I would be hated by those at either extreme end of this debate but well, I don't have a penis but I have the balls to say it

Just because someone presents as the sex opposite to that of their birth does not mean that they become that sex, it is biologically impossible.

Everyone is entitled to present themselves how they like and I respect that however, they should respect those who were born that sex…

Glorianny

Rosie51

VioletSky I wonder if you missed my post at 18:14:30? I tried to explain why saying a woman can have a penis renders the word woman meaningless. Can you think of a word that like cow, ewe or hen in the animal kingdom defines the human adult female?

But a transman can have something they call a penis Rosie51. Now I realise that doesn't fit in with the strange philosophy that transwomen are somehow something completely separate and the two things must never be mentioned.
But it does rather make the question ridiculous as was explained on page1.
If you think a transman is a woman and they have an operation they will have something they call a penis. You may nt like that idea but it is logical.

I was rather surprised that on page 1 you classified a woman who has a rolled up bit of flesh grafted onto her vulva as a woman with a penis. I thought you belonged to the group that believed transmen are men? Would you say to a transman that she's a woman with a penis? Thought not so your argument doesn't quite stand up. I think transmen are women who live and present as men. They aren't men and the few that undergo phalloplasty don't have a penis, they have a construction that may look approximately like one.
As you chose to address my post, can you tell me what the word that exclusively describes and denotes an adult human female is? I presume you don't think ewe, cow and hen are open categories for both sexes of animal?

Iam

I'm not a victim

I'm not rude

I'll never leave

Doodledog

VioletSky

Ok doodledog

Whatever you need to feel better

We won't be talking again

I assume that this means you admit that there is nowhere to go with your denial? Flouncing, or refusing to address issues that others put to you is your usual MO, I realise. Disrespectful? Rude? You really take the biscuit.

You may have thought your comments witty and amusing, but they definitely touched a nerve for me. That incident, and the one in which a different friend was sexually assaulted by a man who was lurking in a pub toilet when we were students have contributed to my feelings on the issue of self-id. The student friend was rescued because someone saw a man go into the Ladies. If he had been dressed as a woman that wouldn't have happened and who knows what would have become of my friend? I was sitting with others a few feet away and had no idea what was going on.

It’s always a mystery to me that you see yourself as a victim on these threads Violet. Your capacity for rudeness know no bounds, yet you accuse others of all manner of wrong doing, them you either lol or flounce.

From now on I will report any comment that misrepresents my views

Because I will not allow myself to be accused of disgusting views

VioletSky

Ok doodledog

Whatever you need to feel better

We won't be talking again

I assume that this means you admit that there is nowhere to go with your denial? Flouncing, or refusing to address issues that others put to you is your usual MO, I realise. Disrespectful? Rude? You really take the biscuit.

You may have thought your comments witty and amusing, but they definitely touched a nerve for me. That incident, and the one in which a different friend was sexually assaulted by a man who was lurking in a pub toilet when we were students have contributed to my feelings on the issue of self-id. The student friend was rescued because someone saw a man go into the Ladies. If he had been dressed as a woman that wouldn't have happened and who knows what would have become of my friend? I was sitting with others a few feet away and had no idea what was going on.

Rosie51

VioletSky I wonder if you missed my post at 18:14:30? I tried to explain why saying a woman can have a penis renders the word woman meaningless. Can you think of a word that like cow, ewe or hen in the animal kingdom defines the human adult female?

But a transman can have something they call a penis Rosie51. Now I realise that doesn't fit in with the strange philosophy that transwomen are somehow something completely separate and the two things must never be mentioned.
But it does rather make the question ridiculous as was explained on page1.
If you think a transman is a woman and they have an operation they will have something they call a penis. You may nt like that idea but it is logical.

VioletSky I wonder if you missed my post at 18:14:30? I tried to explain why saying a woman can have a penis renders the word woman meaningless. Can you think of a word that like cow, ewe or hen in the animal kingdom defines the human adult female?

Ok doodledog

Whatever you need to feel better

We won't be talking again

To be honest I think it is 2 issues

1. issues with things like safe spaces and sport and ensuring women can compete fairly and have space when they need it to heal

2. Do we except gender dysphoria is real, there is a scientific reason it is happening and should we be doing everything we can to heal trans people physically and mentally?

I agree with 1 and 2

You?

VioletSky

doodledog I wasn't discussing that

The idea that anyone should find anyone attractive is abhorrent and denies consent

I have always consistently had that view

Can we please have a discussion based on what I actually do think and say

I quoted what you said. There is no point in denying it now.

If you are suggesting that your dildo comment was in reference to something else, what was it?

We can only know what you actually think from what you actually say.

They are trans women

Why can't we focus on the issues instead of questioning if a woman can have a penis?

For some - that is the issue.

And you know what the "issues" are anyway.

Most contributing to this thread with any thoughtfulness have made it clear. They don't want trans women with male genitalia in intimate female spaces or competing in sport alongside women where they will have a distinct advantage because of their male physique and their strength. They don't agree with the minority (or what appears to be a minority) of TRAs who insist that TWAW.

Other than that - I haven't read all the comments - there seems to be a consensus that trans women, generally speaking, the trans women we don't really hear much about other than through the lens of the right-wing media who are always ready to stir the pot, are entitled to the same rights, protections and respect that anyone else expects from society. And the same goes for any trans gender / non-binary / agender person.

Other than this - what are the issues that we should focus on?

doodledog I wasn't discussing that

The idea that anyone should find anyone attractive is abhorrent and denies consent

I have always consistently had that view

Can we please have a discussion based on what I actually do think and say

Smileless2012

Yes I do see reasonableness Glorianny and the reluctance to engage with reality doesn't come from those voicing their concerns, which I think you've referred too as scaremongering.

I think what's being referred too with regard to Lol was posted yesterday VS. At 18.22 I posted "The use of vibrators has nothing to do with this discussion and its introduction smacks of desperation". Mollygo quoted that post @ 18.28 and posted "Yes".

That was immediately followed by your post @ 18.38 of "Lol".

Yes exactly

I answered a comment and was told my answer was irrelevant and desperate so I laughed

Thanks for understanding

VioletSky

Ok well I did laugh at that because we got to the bottom of one point but the rest was ignored doodledog

Do you really think I would think that?

What did we get to the bottom of, and what was ignored?

We were discussing how some transwomen insist that lesbians should fancy them because actually they don't know their sexuality, and should recognise that they really feel 'same-gender attraction' rather than the same-sex attraction that they have always known.

As I pointed out, a good friend of mine had a horrible experience with someone she arranged to meet after connecting on a lesbian dating site, assuming she was meeting a woman but finding out that her 'date' was a male-bodied transwoman.

You then brought dildos into the discussion, with one of your patronising single phrases posts that implies that you are speaking to idiots:

Dildos come in all shapes but many are penis shaped

Many lesbians like penetration

A dildo, even penis shaped is not man

A trans women being able to get sexual gratification while satisfying a partner who is attracted to her is great

And also none of your business 😉

As I say, that was pretty much exactly what the transwoman who got really nasty with my friend said, before threatening her and calling her a TERF. He, like you, had no idea about whether her preference was for penetrative sex, but he also jumped to conclusions.

The hilarious posts and ditties about dildos continued for a while, as did the third form suggestions that anyone not rolling in the aisles had no sense of humour, and LOLs from you.

How you dare to accuse others of rudeness and disrespect is beyond me.

And biological women still haven't got a penis. Mother Nature dictates that, regardless of all the hashtag shouting.

Those identifying that they wish to be a woman might have.🙄