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Can a woman have a penis?

(1001 Posts)
maddyone Wed 24-May-23 11:16:35

Ed Davey says they can. Keir Starmer isn’t sure. Can women have a penis?

Doodledog Fri 26-May-23 22:22:23

VioletSky

I have pointed that out before Wyllow but I wasn't believed

That the majority of trans women had never even asked to go to women's prisons

But most trans women do care about women which makes it all that bit more heartbreaking in reality that so many women do not reciprocate, won't help find solutions, won't help find services etc

Why would anyone just 'believe' you, VS? If you posted sources once in a while, you might be in with a chance, but unsubstantiated claims from someone who 'lol's and uses baby talk are not likely to get much credence, are they?

Smileless2012 Fri 26-May-23 22:29:35

No one's said that the majority of trans women have asked to go to women's prisons and we all know that ^most trans women do care about women^; no one's said otherwise, and in reality it is reciprocated.

Doodledog Fri 26-May-23 22:32:39

Of course the majority of transwomen don't ask to go to female prisons - most people never go to jail in their lives. It's such a pointless thing to say.

Mollygo Fri 26-May-23 22:34:43

Can you provide evidence for your statement
That the majority of trans women had never even asked to go to women's prisons to verify what you claim?

Can you show where on GN anyone has said that most TIM don’t care about women.
The only mentions relate to actions of those TIM who don’t care about women.

What evidence do you have that TIM do care and that females don’t reciprocate?

Reciprocate is defined as a response to an action with a corresponding one.
Where is your evidence of caring actions by TIM and refusal to reciprocate by natal females?

What solutions have TIM provided that do not involve demanding access to solutions developed with hard work by and for females?

What services have TIM sought other than to demand access to female facilities?

Galaxy Fri 26-May-23 23:45:47

I always wondered what it would look like when everyone woke up and said er no thank you no men in womens spaces. One of the tactics seems to be to pretend that none of it happened, there wasnt a concerted attempt to let men into womens spaces, fortunately in the modern world it is possible to provide evidence. There are currently very vocal transwomen telling us what bigots we are for stopping men taking part in female sport, stonewall ran a whole campaign on it. In terms of prisons again that was a concerted campaign particularly around not misgendering violent men. Telling people that this didnt happen is actually quite unpleasant.

Pomegranateseed Sat 27-May-23 00:37:38

Please don't add me to a group or collection for your posts, I prefer to have my own say, thank you.

Wyllow I don't understand

Fairly self explanatory I would have thought.

DiamondLily Sat 27-May-23 07:34:57

Perhaps, with prisons, it might be an idea for separate wings/units, where trans people could be housed whilst serving their sentence.

That might keep all sides happy.🙂

Iam64 Sat 27-May-23 07:46:12

Diamond yes, a suggestion many of us support.

Galaxy Sat 27-May-23 07:52:29

There has been some attempts at seperate provision but it's quite complex, and certainly in some parts of the country there are still men in womens prisons. Also we arent talking about transpeople we are talking about transwomen, transmen are generally housed quite rightly in the female estate. Although I have recently heard of one exception.

Smileless2012 Sat 27-May-23 08:30:06

And yet DL and Iam we're accused here of not being proactive when it comes finding solutionshmm.

Mollygo Sat 27-May-23 09:18:47

Smileless2012

And yet DL and Iam we're accused here of not being proactive when it comes finding solutionshmm.

Yes and you notice there’s no response to the questions I asked about evidence of solutions, services, and actions requiring reciprocations that TIM are doing for themselves.
Either because there isn’t any or because VS is playing her I’m not talking to you game. Whichever way-there’s no evidence for what was claimed, so . . .

Doodledog Sat 27-May-23 09:57:41

How many transpeople are also criminals? The numbers must be fairly small, as the number of criminals in the population is already fairly small.

There is a lot of data here (HoC library), but to save you sifting through it all, there are :

159 prisoners per 100,000 of the population in England and Wales
162 per 100,000 in Scotland.
97 per 100,000 in Northern Ireland.

Of those, according to the Office of National Statistics in England 93.5% of the population said that they 'identified into' the same sex as they have always been. So roughly 6.5% of the population 'identifies' as trans.

To stick with England for ease of reference (Scottish figures are very similar) if 159 out of 100,000 people 'identifies as' trans, and 6.5% of those are in jail, we are looking at 10.33 transpeople per 100,000 prisoners - a tiny percentage. 0.0001%?

The figures for trans-identifying people are taken from the last census, as of course there is no way of counting what is after all a 'feeling', rather than a reality. Of course, the census is not asking people about to be imprisoned if they feel like women or men (or if it is, the stats are not sorted to give that data). We don't know what the numbers are for people who have been convicted of crimes serious enough for prison and are also trans - we can count the number of people in prison who identify as such, but that is not the same thing.

This means, therefore, that the stream of male sex offenders awaiting sentence who appear in the News also claiming to be 'in the wrong body, part of 'the most marginalised group in society', and pleading to be housed in female prisons seems remarkable disproportionate to the minute number of transpeople likely to be in jail, but there is no data to support that. Am I the only one to feel cynical about this?

Also, if there are 'special wings' for trans prisoners, will they be new, modern ones, built on 21st century models of how prisons should be, or will they be decaying overcrowded Victorian ones, along with much of the existing estate? Given that there does appear to be an incentive for men to ask to go to female jails where they will be amongst the stronger, larger, more powerful prisoners, wouldn't nicer special wings become even more of a draw? And wouldn't grotty ones lead to accusations of victimisation of this 'marginalised' group?

Now I know that there will be cries of 'so what should be done about 'trans' rapists and other sex offenders who are marginalised already, and might hate prison so much that they threaten suicide?' I would refer the question back to those who ask it. I am not sympathetic to their demands, so am probably not the best person to ask. I do not believe that under any circumstances they should be given better treatment than other rapists or sex offenders, and nor do I think that they should be foisted onto female prisoners. What do those who do have sympathy with their plight think should happen to them? Do those who think that TWAW so they should be housed as such believe that a sex offender identifying as a minor should be housed in a YO institution or a secure unit with children, or is it just women who should have to take the risk of being locked up with them?

There are, of course, prisoners who are not rapists or sex offenders, which complicates things still further. I don't know what should be done about them either, but I don't see that as a cop out, or because I am 'privileged'. It's because I am not in any way qualified to come up with solutions to such a complex issue. My (unqualified) thoughts are that if they have surgically transitioned then they should be treated as women for the purposes of their sentence. 'People with vaginas' would be at huge risk in a male prison, and I am more inclined to believe that someone who has gone so far along the road to being female is not likely to be as much of a risk, because of hormones and so on (assuming they are able to keep taking them inside). But that may be nonsense, which is why I am not the right person to ask that either.

Smileless2012 Sat 27-May-23 10:26:05

Great post Doodledog and very informative. Much better to have verifiable information rather than unsubstantiated sweeping generalisations.

Yes I did notice Mollygo, we keep asking questions even though they're rarely if ever answered.

Galaxy Sat 27-May-23 11:27:13

As everyone probably knows I care little for what men have done to their body. They remain men and have no place in wonens spaces. Pretending that men are women is how we got to where we are today. We must stop doing it.
It's not just about safety, the figures for women in prison show that a very significant part of the female prison population have been abused by men. I have no idea why these women should be further abused by being locked up with men.

Doodledog Sat 27-May-23 11:30:52

They shouldn't. I'm just able to be persuaded that men who have taken female hormones and have no penis are far less likely to be a threat than ones with beards, hairy chests and full tackle.

FarNorth Sat 27-May-23 11:46:00

Given that there does appear to be an incentive for men to ask to go to female jails where they will be amongst the stronger, larger, more powerful prisoners, wouldn't nicer special wings become even more of a draw? And wouldn't grotty ones lead to accusations of victimisation of this 'marginalised' group?

That's for the Prison Service to work out.

To me, the unfairness of TIMs getting better or worse accommodation than other males is completely unimportant compared to the unfairness and actual danger to female prisoners when males are housed with them.

FarNorth Sat 27-May-23 11:55:11

Males in women's prisons cause alarm to female prisoners and officers, just by being there.
Any male can be intimidating or aggressive, regardless of what his crime was.
Adam Graham claimed he wanted to 'go all the way' with sex reassignment. Would he then become deserving of a place in a women's prison?

No males in women's jails is a perfectly reasonable position, with the Prison Service making arrangements for any specific needs that male prisoners have.

Helz Sat 27-May-23 12:01:49

100% NO

Doodledog Sat 27-May-23 12:06:04

I agree with everything you say, FN. My point about the condition of the accommodation on the 'special wings' that people often recommend was more that they could so easily become another way for transwomen to use their 'feelings' as a way to get one over on actual women.

Of course the danger to female prisoners is more important. It seems crazy that we have to say that - we wouldn't have even five years ago.

I think with Adam Graham/Isla Bryson he should have had his bluff called. He could have the op, but with no promises about anything in advance. He'd have to be in a 'nonce's wing' anyway, but if he were castrated and on female hormones he would be a lot less of a threat to anyone than he is now.

Pomegranateseed Sat 27-May-23 12:56:41

It would appear that the majority of posters are saying a resounding NO! And the sporting world agrees with them.

VioletSky Sat 27-May-23 13:00:09

It's never occured to me that I should demand a source when someone states something

I might ask for a source of I'm interested to learn more about what they have said

I might look into it myself if I'm not sure they are correct

To treat others as if they are, well not just potential liars but actual liars until they prove otherwise... I just cant imagine being that way...

I've posted sources before when asked and only been told they are too old or not a valid source anyway

It really is no wonder why these threads mess with my head so badly I'm constantly shocked into laughing

Doodledog Sat 27-May-23 13:16:39

It might never occur to you, VS, but it is normal practice to say where your (one's) facts and figures have come from. Not if you are just expressing an opinion, but if making a sweeping statement, such as 'the majority of trans women had never even asked to go to women's prisons'.

It's not about anyone thinking you are lying - it's about people wanting to know how reliable the source of your claims might be.

I wonder why you bother posing on here sometimes - you clearly have such a low and disrespectful opinion of your fellow posters that you laugh at us all the time.

Doodledog Sat 27-May-23 13:17:13

posting, not posing.

Smileless2012 Sat 27-May-23 13:27:37

But no one has demanded a source or that their questions are answered VS, they simply ask and I'm sure when you have asked a source has been provided and any questions you've had have been answered.

Unfortunately the vast majority of the time if you're asked, you very seldom answer.

Where has anyone treated another poster as if they're potential or actual liars?

If these threads were to mess with my head, it would be because of the countless sweeping generalisations and unsubstantiated and vague accusations so often made.

VioletSky Sat 27-May-23 13:31:15

I've actually tried again and again to have respectful conversation on these threads

Yes I have lost respect for many people because of things like:

1. Personal comments

2. Telling me what I think or mean

3. Picking a small section of my comments to answer that takes it out of context

4. Not representing my comments with their actual meaning and refusing to allow clarifications

5. That I genuinely see a lot of discrimination against trans people as a whole that others do not view as such

6. Animosities being taken across threads and even into other topics

And it's correct that while I don't do those things... I have a defence mechanism in humour when people treat me that way that I obviously need to work on

So I apologise for laughing

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