Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

Does being old stop you from being an aggressor?
The pros in my mind are standing with our allies, in the way I hope Ukraine would have done for us if the shoe were on the other foot.

My preference would always be to send arms and equipment over sending U.K. Forces to fight on foreign soil.

President Putin may not be rational, he appears to want the old USSR back. His successor could be better or could be worse.

NATO and it’s allies/members has no choice other than to support Ukraine, who knows which Country could be next on Russia’s list?

Hey, good job we participated in the second world war tho!

Yes, the West should continue to send arms to Ukraine, we don’t know what Putin or his successors will do in the future and have to act as one over this.

Of course arms manufacturers are pleased, it’s what they are in business for, arms for wars or for protection

I think this country has done well to take so many Afghans in, those that worked for us.It’s a shame they haven’t all been housed properly yet, but there are many others here including British citizens living in hotels or hostels.They all need housing properly, but at least they are out of the talibans reach.

We are a major NATO partner so IMO we don’t have a lot of choice. Warsaw and Helsinki have said they will send the Leopard tank, but Germany holds the export licence so they have the final word. We would supply Challenger 2 which, like the Leopard, is light years away from the old soviet era tanks that the Ukraine has at the moment. It would certainly up,their game.

Putin wants to rebuild Russia as it was in 1989. Ruling everywhere from the Baltic to the Pacific. Lands that were given their independence in that year.

He started small supporting rebellions in remote areas of Georgia, and Moldavia, recently he has supported the government in Belorus. It is now a client state. he has done all this with one eye on NATO, to see how it has reacted - and, he saw that NATO was doing nothing.

Then in 2014, he invaded the Crimea and supported pro-russian groups in the Donbas region. Once again he had got away with it. We faced a future of Putin gradually re-occupying and recreating the old Soviet Union and creating another military state. That is why NATO had to say, thus far and no further.

Remember the poem by Martin Niemoller?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Replace communist, socialist, jew, with Ukraine, Moldavia, Poland, Romania etc.

That is what will happen if we do not support Ukraine.

Greyduster

We are a major NATO partner so IMO we don’t have a lot of choice. Warsaw and Helsinki have said they will send the Leopard tank, but Germany holds the export licence so they have the final word. We would supply Challenger 2 which, like the Leopard, is light years away from the old soviet era tanks that the Ukraine has at the moment. It would certainly up,their game.

Our Challengers are mostly old and worn out they are restricting the training on them, plenty of modern Leopards and US tanks. But tanks are very vulnerable to one soldier with a shoulder launched missile, as the Russians found out. Artillery and Cruise Missiles are more effective along with infantry weapons and defensive weapons of course.

Should we be sending Ukraine more?, that depends if we foresee Ukraine regaining the lost land, if we do then NATO has to supply much more. Russia is well established, the sanctions don’t seem to be reducing their fighting capacity and they are just as capable of producing the weapons being used as the NATO.

At some stage a peace deal has to be made the question is when.

WW2 was not shameful. It was a war against fascism and moreover one of survival.

Your, 'It would certainly up their game' made me wince, Grey as my fear is that it might make Putin raise his game too.
You know more about NATO than I do, but I did not think it was firmly advocating this further degree of intervention. If it is, why is Germany holding back with its Leopards?

There is no question of our not supporting Ukraine. I don't understand that response. The UK has rightly been giving considerable monetary and technical support to Ukraine all along. These proposals would ratchet that up to a potentially dangerous level, and prolong the war.

Surely a negotiated solution is the answer difficult tho that may seem at the moment.

Ukraine are not in NATO so we are not " partners", nor should they be, as that is what this war is partly about. The whole point of the Minsk agreement is that Ukraine stays a neutral buffer zone between east and west. The agreement being broken by Ukraine at the urging of the USA is a major factor in Russia invading in the first place.

I don't think we should support this war at all. I'm really anti war. I think we should spend the money on paying our nurses, doctors and railway workers a decent wage and recruiting more NHS staff.

I am so concerned about the huge loss of life which is being suffered by Russians and Ukrainians.
War never seems a long term solution, and in modern times with nuclear capabilities there is a real danger in escalation
I wish there was more energy towards diplomacy and peace talks, than supplying arms.

Germany is not holding back with its Leopards - it’s not supplying them. To be able to supply Leopard tanks to Ukraine, Poland and Finland would have to re-export them and they need permission from Berlin to do that as they hold the export licence. It seems that the Germans have now said they will not block the move. And yes, the Ukrainians would prefer the Leopard, but they’re not going to turn their noses up at the Challenger or whatever it is that the French are offering them.

Totally agree Farzanah I think we have done a lot and this could go on for many more years I would like to see more energy put into peace talks because this really seems to be going no where

grannyrebel7

I don't think we should support this war at all. I'm really anti war. I think we should spend the money on paying our nurses, doctors and railway workers a decent wage and recruiting more NHS staff.

I really agree... I think sending more weaponary escalates the war and potential for it including other countries. I feel so sorry for all those poor conscripted Russians.. it's an awful situation with an unstable despot like Putin.in control I can only hope that whoever eventually succeeds him will be willing to have peace talks..

Germany is keeping the Ukraine war at arms length or Russia will cut what gas it does supply.

It’s not just the USA that encouraged Ukraine to disregard the Minsk agreement(s) the EU had an even bigger part in encouraging the Orange Revolution. Of course Independance and freedom is the goal we should all support but at what price.
Despite early set backs Russia has achieved its aim, are we really going to supply enough arms to drive them out?.

pascal30

grannyrebel7

I don't think we should support this war at all. I'm really anti war. I think we should spend the money on paying our nurses, doctors and railway workers a decent wage and recruiting more NHS staff.

I really agree... I think sending more weaponary escalates the war and potential for it including other countries. I feel so sorry for all those poor conscripted Russians.. it's an awful situation with an unstable despot like Putin.in control I can only hope that whoever eventually succeeds him will be willing to have peace talks..

So forget the senseless deaths of so many people just trying to continue their lives with some sense of normalcy. We are focussed on the Ukraine but many Russian are dying as well.
Sometimes action trumps principle.

The only way that any war ends is with a peace agreement, there is no other solution that won't involve the whole of Europe in armageddon . The USA is egging on Zalensky simply because it wants control of the Ukraine and has been working towards that aim for years. Blackrock has already secured a " deal" to rebuild Ukraine after the war. This is exactly the same as they did in Iraq, it's all about the money as usual and big finance.
We need to stop supplying arms and force the start of a peace agreement before any more innocent people lose their lives just to line the pockets of the arms industry. Why do we never learn?

Perhaps look at the tanks as not so much about fighting the air, but as proving a defence. Personally - and I do know a bit more about this than in the msm - I know a peace deal isn’t going to happen soon. But hey, just let them die….

War not air!

Normandygirl Ukraine was a country with no argument with Russia and clear borders.

In 2014, with no justification. Russia marched in, annexed part of the country - and nobody did anything, so this year it repeated the operation, this time planning to take over the whole country, and this time Ukraine fought back and NATO countries have supported Ukraine.

Are you suggesting that the US egged on Russia to invade Ukraine, so that once the Russians had destroyed it, the Americans could make money out of rebuilding it?

What is your evidence?

Zelenski wants peace but not at any price.He wants Russians out of his country.Wouldn’t you? The rapes and killings of private citizens including kids by Russian soldiers who have been brutal beyond belief is staggering.
Forget feeling naively sorry for Russian soldiers!
Putin doesn’t want peace at all and won’t be satisfied until all of Ukraine belongs to Russia.
After Ukraine, what next?
All these posters who say they are ‘against war’ I mean FGS who isn’t? But sometimes dictators have to be stood up to or worse happens.

Thankyou Monica I thought I had stepped into an alternative universe.

Oreo I’m with you 👍. If we ignored the Russian invasion and murdering Putin won, where would he move onto next ? He’s a madman and needs to be conquered pdq.

Would those who are against the war just allow another country to overcome them and take their land ?

Before WW2, there were people who felt we should appease Germany to keep out of the war, even though he too was just such an aggressor as Putin.

Thank goodness we didn't.