Unconscious bias / racism/ assumptions made maybe?

I once genuinely thought the same way and I once was ignorant

Personal growth

We can do better

We are not a product of our time, we exist in the now and we can all be better. Which will help avoid situations like the one those boys faced by not excusing wrongful arrest.

“Find another thread poster.”

That’s bullying

I'm sorry you feel bullied Lyndie. I'm not sure why you do, but accept that you do. .

Perhaps Violet is right and discussions do mean that people will question and disagree. As she says disagreement is not bullying. It's just not thinking the same and in good discussions, having an open mind to consider different perspectives including why one has one's own perspective.

Hope you find a conversation where you feel more comfortable

VioletSky

Lyndie

Please see my last text. Violet. I am going now. I feel bullied.

That's a shame

Disagreeing is not bullying

Maybe it would be best to choose a thread that is a conversation rather than a discussion so you feel more comfortable

Perhaps telling a poster they are “ignorant” is?

If somebody says they feel they have been bullied, then they have been bullied.

Their perception is their reality

We cannot be OK with our countries children being treated like this for such a trivial matter

These boys will grow up to distrust police and may not feel comfortable reporting crimes against them. Especially race related crimes. None of our brilliant police officers would be happy to know that either.

Lyndie

Please see my last text. Violet. I am going now. I feel bullied.

That's a shame

Disagreeing is not bullying

Maybe it would be best to choose a thread that is a conversation rather than a discussion so you feel more comfortable

I have helped hate crime victims and it’s appalling but I treat people with respect, kindness, empathy and support and I am not the only one

That's good!

But I am not sure what that has got to do with this scenario. Yes the officers will have to justify what happened presumably. As will the Met Police who made no attempt to contact their mother and gave her incorrect information when she asked where her son was having been told by her distraught 13 year old son that his brother had been arrested and put in a police van

But before any of that, I am still wondering why "they might have knives" figures atall on the basis of the information in the articles. Ofcourse he did have a small rock for his geography project, tried to explain that and wasn't listened to ... so let's get back to his worse case scenario where to find the rock in his pocket he must have been searched, and presumably no knives were found or it just might have been mentioned in the reports by now!!! Plus he wouldn't have been released 2 hours after being oin a cell with no charges if he had a knife!

So again, how have "they might have had a knife" come into a discussion on a 15 year old and a 13 year old, one of whom forgot his Oyster card ..both of whom were arrested...?!!

Please see my last text. Violet. I am going now. I feel bullied.

No school uniform doesn't stop kids having knives!! But what from any information here suggests that there was anything to make the police think that they did? Why would "they might have knives" be the worse case in this scenario as a starting point?

Lyndie

Of course some people need extra help but that can be anyone.

No, not extra help

There are people who face discrimination

As those 2 boys did

Unless you think it would be acceptable for several police officers to rough handle and search you for knives if you forgeot or lost your train ticket then you are OK with other demographics being discriminated against.

So that's people who aren't considered for jobs or aren't considered for tenancies or aren't considered as friends or potential partners

Also that's not the only reason being colour blind is wrong. People's different religions and cultures deserve celebrating. People need different types of skin and hair products. People have different medical needs or doctors need training on how to spot different medical problems on darker skin...

I could go on and on

But being colour blind is not a good thing

Also it means being literally colour blind and has nothing to do with race anyway

George Floyd was mentioned up thread. I understand that maybe the boys had that in their mind. I know as a women walking in the dark scares me because of reports. I do get it Madgran. I know they were kids and I hate for kids to be scared. School uniform doesn’t stop kids from having knives. The Officers will always deal with worse case and go back from there. I am not justifying their treatment. The officers will have to do that. I am not happy with the statement unconscious bias. It shuts the argument down. I have helped hate crime victims and it’s appalling but I treat people with respect, kindness, empathy and support and I am not the only one.

Lyndie*, that's good that you get fantastic feedback from everyone in a work context.

I am still wondering as above in my last post:

This was 2 teenage brothers in school uniform going to school. Why on earth would anyone jump from one teenager without their Oyster card to "they might have knives!!" I wonder what on earth would make you think that yourself as a reason to justify what happened?

Yes George Floyd was in the US! I am not at all sure why that fact is relevant really within the context and thinking of a black teenage 15 year old who suddenly finds himself surrounded by 4 officials and is genuinely frightened that he will be pushed to the floor and someone might do the same to him ie restrain him by pressing on his neck, as happened to George Floyd! Can you see where he would be coming from in this incident? Can you see why his perspective on it might be different to mine or yours?

I am truly interested in your thoughts on those two questions
if you feel able to give them.

Of course some people need extra help but that can be anyone.

Well it works for me in my job. I get fantastic feedback from everyone.

Lyndie

I am colour blind. I deal with all races and nationalities exactly the same.

I'm not colour blind and realise that some people face difficulties in life I do not.

I used to think the way you do because I grew up in a racist family and that's what I thought the opposite of racism was.

My best friend re educated me when I was young

It isn't the opposite, it's ignorant I'm afraid and you can change it

I am colour blind. I deal with all races and nationalities exactly the same.

Lyndie

Officers have to protect themselves too. The boys could have had knives. I meet a lot of Police Officers, they are just like you and me . Would you like their job, they are the ones who protect us and stop anarchy and sometimes die doing their job. Btw George Floyd was in the US.

Have you read the articles links Lyndie?

This was 2 teenage brothers in school uniform going to school. Why on earth would anyone jump from one teenager without their Oyster card to "they might have knives!!" I wonder what on earth would make you think that yourself as a "reason" to justify what happened?

Yes George Floyd was in the US! I am not at all sure why that fact is relevant really within the context and thinking of a black teenage 15 year old who suddenly finds himself surrounded by 4 officials and is genuinely frightened that he will be pushed to the floor and someone might do the same to him ie restrain him by pressing on his neck, as happened to George Floyd!

Can you see where he would be coming from in this incident? Can you see why his perspective on it might be so different to yours or mine?

I have a family full of police officers. I know exactly how they protect and serve.

Would they have thought that 2 white boys in school uniforms had knives? Would this outcome happened if they were white?

No.

So, if you forgot your ticket do you think it would be reasonable to have several police turn up, treat you roughly, and search you for a knife Lyndie?

Or just young people?

Or just young males?

Or just young black males?

Officers have to protect themselves too. The boys could have had knives. I meet a lot of Police Officers, they are just like you and me . Would you like their job, they are the ones who protect us and stop anarchy and sometimes die doing their job. Btw George Floyd was in the US.

I love facts.

Thanks Siope. I was trying to find similar data yesterday with no success. Clearly my search techniques don't hit the mark like yours 😏

I have never had any luck trying to find the specific criteria used by police in making the decision to stop and search either. Have you? . It would be interesting to know

Thanks for that link Siope. Those are alarming statistics, especially when seeing the huge proportion of stop & searches which result in no action.
It does look as if the perception of black people, that they are unfairly targeted, is correct.

Apologies for the formatting. The photo will not budge to a more appropriate place in the post.

London has a majority population of minorities. This means more black people are going to be stopped than white people.

Neither of these are true.

59.8% of Londoners identify as white, according to the 2021 census. Far-right commentators who have claimed otherwise have been rebuked by the ONS for ‘misleading use’ of official statistics.

15.6% of Londoners are black or black-heritage (same source)

In 2021, 139,805 people in London were stopped and searched (source Met Police). If these, 66,023 (47%) were white, and 48,158 ((34%) black/black heritage.

The attached photo is from the City of London police and shows stop and search figures per 1000 of the population between May and October 2022 (source and further information www.police.uk/pu/your-area/city-of-london-police/performance/stop-and-search/ ) Of particular interest, beyond the clear racial disparity, may be the very low percentage of stop and search that leads to any action.

Nationally, black and other minority ethnic communities (who are c13% of the population) are seven times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people (source: ONS).