Transphobic Bullying

I haven't said I'm not being responded too dodledog I just acknowledged what has been said to me often on the thread

I guess you can see that as a bad thing but I just see it as a logical conclusion from many comments and haven't singled anyone out

VioletSky

Sorry doodledog

Do you need me to highlight all aspects of comments that I do agree with?

Because I wouldn't expect that for myself so haven't considered doing that for contributions that don't need challenging on the topic

No. I just feel that moaning that you are not being responded to when that is obviously untrue is disingenuous and manipulative, so have pointed out just some of the responses you have had but chosen to ignore.

It generally comes from adults VS, and yes i am sure that does affect children, so we should never encourage reinforcing gender by saying clothes toys etc have anything to do with being a man or a woman. Its deeply damaging.

I think that the desire to transition is rooted in sexism - ie the feeling of being 'in the wrong body', or that if someone feels more comfortable with what have become the 'gender norms' of the opposite sex from their own that must mean that they should be the opposite sex from their own.

I agree that having men in female spaces is a perfectly rational fear, and that the writing off of women's fears as 'hysterical' is rooted in misogyny.

Sorry doodledog

Do you need me to highlight all aspects of comments that I do agree with?

Because I wouldn't expect that for myself so haven't considered doing that for contributions that don't need challenging on the topic

I'm not convinced that transphobia is rooted in sexism. Phobia is an extreme or irrational fear of, or aversion to something. That said for me, the reaction to the things we discuss for example intact males in women's safe places isn't an irrational fear.

VioletSky

Galaxy

The sexism is as I have described, a regressive problem has been created by talking about being a woman or a man linked to clothes make up etc. Its going to take forever to undo.

It is, because having gender dysphoria and the feeling of being born into the wrong body... many children will try to express that in line with popular ways of doing so

So children who are not conforming to gender norms being bullied with transphobic slurs shows a really clear lack of any understanding and has strong roots in sexism

But something like 0.004% of children have gender dysphoria (as outlined upthread), or are you ignoring that inconvenient truth too?

I am not saying that those children are not important, but they need to be dealt with in a very specialised way, not by mainstream policies that are written for all children.

VioletSky

Doodledog

Perhaps it is - I am speaking from my own point of view (how can I do otherwise?) But rather than dismissing it, why not engage with it, and not pretend that you are being told to concentrate on a general approach? Disagree by all means, but do it honestly?

What do you mean? I read it, I didn't have any particular problem with it, just doesn't really address the topic
Is that not enough?

You asked for thoughts on how we can help to prevent bullying, and I have given mine.

If you seriously expected people to say that conversations in public or private should be censored you were most unlikely to be satisfied there.

I have suggested that bullying should be considered from a less simplistic POV than the checklist you posted, and that has also been ignored. I have mentioned a situation from my own experience, and so has that.

Other people have done similar things, too, but instead of engaging, you keep reiterating that you are being 'thoroughly told' that you should take a general approach.

How is this a discussion?

Galaxy

The sexism is as I have described, a regressive problem has been created by talking about being a woman or a man linked to clothes make up etc. Its going to take forever to undo.

It is, because having gender dysphoria and the feeling of being born into the wrong body... many children will try to express that in line with popular ways of doing so

So children who are not conforming to gender norms being bullied with transphobic slurs shows a really clear lack of any understanding and has strong roots in sexism

The sexism is as I have described, a regressive problem has been created by talking about being a woman or a man linked to clothes make up etc. Its going to take forever to undo.

Galaxy

We have been challenging the nonsense for years every time someone says dress like a woman I challenge the sexism. I should have the phrase saved somewhere to save the effort.

But what do you think about transphobia having roots in sexism and how do we address that?

Doodledog

Perhaps it is - I am speaking from my own point of view (how can I do otherwise?) But rather than dismissing it, why not engage with it, and not pretend that you are being told to concentrate on a general approach? Disagree by all means, but do it honestly?

What do you mean? I read it, I didn't have any particular problem with it, just doesn't really address the topic
Is that not enough?

Perhaps it is - I am speaking from my own point of view (how can I do otherwise?) But rather than dismissing it, why not engage with it, and not pretend that you are being told to concentrate on a general approach? Disagree by all means, but do it honestly?

We have been challenging the nonsense for years every time someone says dress like a woman I challenge the sexism. I should have the phrase saved somewhere to save the effort.

Doodledog

Agreed, DL.

I would never minimise bullying of anyone from whatever group, but singling out one group of children, having lessons about them and policies about how they may be addressed, accusations of 'phobia' against those who fall out with them, preferential treatment about things like which toilets they use and so on are all things that poke at other children's sense of what is fair. Fairness really matters to children, as they have so little power of their own.

The fact that one of the few ways for children to get status is to put others down, that they see adults doing likewise, and that the government encourages division and scapegoating rather than co-operation and problem-based (rather than blame-based) solutions all contribute to the reasons for bullying in general.

Social media can be toxic, and a lot of posts about trans issues are particularly so. People (particularly women) are singled out and persecuted for defending women's rights, and older children in particular are often very news aware. They also hear of cases where women are attacked by self-identified 'transwomen'.

School staff are hidebound by Stonewall's Diversity Champion agenda (even though it appears that not all of them realise that), and managers run scared of accusations of transphobia, so there is an atmosphere of fear in some schools. Children being bullied by self-identified trans children face a double whammy, as on top of the bullying they may be accused of 'phobia' and their only recourse is to staff who are afraid to help them (as seen by the case DL has highlighted and the case of Molly's grand-daughter) or to people who are 'captured' by Stonewall.

We have seen on this very thread that words have the power to get a reaction, and this is backed up by a different one with many posts in favour of a family estranging because an old man used a particularly taboo word after a few drinks. Of course children want to push boundaries by using powerful words - they always did.

All of the above are possible reasons why 'transphobic bullying' may be happening (although if it is not happening to trans children I am not sure that I would define it as such). All have been highlighted in various ways upthread, yet there are still accusations that nobody is addressing the issues, suggestions that people who have worked in education for decades don't understand these issues, and a refusal to engage rationally (as opposed to rubbishing) with the above suggestions.

Bullying of any and all groups of children is important to all of us. Many of us have worked in education and many have children and grandchildren. Of course we all care about the issue, and the implication that only one or two people on the thread care is both incorrect and offensive.

This one doodledog?

It seems a bit one sided to me to be honest with you

I agree with you referring to this as "so-called 'gender'" Doodledog because these supposed gender norms of for example short hair, clothes and activities having anything to do with being a woman, haven't been relevant for decades.

They weren't as I've already said, relevant when I was at school 45 plus years ago.

I've been thoroughly told on this thread that I don't need to focus on why certain types of bullying are happening and should just take a general approach and I'm only a TA.

That is simply not true. My post of 10.29 this morning is just one of the numerous posts on this thread that has tried to address the reasons behind bullying - both generally and to trans children, but you have not responded to anything in it.

VioletSky

Galaxy

Yes the sexism that short hair, clothes, activities have anything to do with being a woman. So yes I will keep challenging all that nonsense.

That's a good start

A start??

How long have we all been saying that this is at the root of why we are concerned about so-called 'gender'? There must have been hundreds of posts about it.

Do you not listen to anything that doesn't fit with your training?

Glorianny

But the point is that all of those subjects for bullying, ginger hair, spec wearers, disabilities, sexual preferences, race or religion are roundly condemned by most adults. Racial bullying only began to reduce when there was a concerted effort in schools and sport to get rid of it (Show Racism the Red Card). It is unlikely that trans bullying will stop until it is roundly condemned. So it isn't appropriate to say it's just another form. Teachers have been addressing those other subjects for years, now they are trapped into being abused if they try to stop it and accused of supporting bullying

Definitely

I've been thoroughly told on this thread that I don't need to focus on why certain types of bullying are happening and should just take a general approach and I'm only a TA.

Teachers being judged for trying to educate children and promote acceptance on different topics must be really struggling...

Galaxy

Yes the sexism that short hair, clothes, activities have anything to do with being a woman. So yes I will keep challenging all that nonsense.

That's a good start

Glorianny

But the point is that all of those subjects for bullying, ginger hair, spec wearers, disabilities, sexual preferences, race or religion are roundly condemned by most adults. Racial bullying only began to reduce when there was a concerted effort in schools and sport to get rid of it (Show Racism the Red Card). It is unlikely that trans bullying will stop until it is roundly condemned. So it isn't appropriate to say it's just another form. Teachers have been addressing those other subjects for years, now they are trapped into being abused if they try to stop it and accused of supporting bullying

It is not easy to deal with bullying, and nobody is saying it is.

I ran Equal Opps seminars in the 80s, which were largely concentrated on racism in those days - we still had Section 28 in force, which precluded a concentration on sexuality. There was Rock Against Racism back then, too - it's not a new thing. Anyway, we are not talking about the past.

Are you really suggesting that bullying in any form is not roundly condemned? If teachers are not dealing with all of it as best they can, then they should be. Who are you suggesting is 'trapping' teachers, incidentally?

Yes the sexism that short hair, clothes, activities have anything to do with being a woman. So yes I will keep challenging all that nonsense.

Does bullying have to be deliberate to count as bullying? Is disagreeing with someone bullying, for instance, even if the disagreed-with person is unable to take disagreement? Who gets to define what is 'phobia', what is bullying and what is simply human interaction that one party doesn't like? Can someone who is mentally 'robust' (by which I mean psychologically able to shrug off criticisms and disagreements that more 'fragile' people would find distressing? If so, is it the behaviour that is at fault, or the impact it has on the complainant?

All of the above have to be considered when deciding on what is bullying (and more besides). It's not a case of a simplistic checklist of 'how to' bully.

I had a colleague who was always claiming that she was bullied, although another POV was that she was passive-aggressively bullying others by using the constant threat that she would be absent with stress if asked to do anything she didn't want to do, and by holding the threat of a bullying complaint over anyone who tried to manage her behaviour. I was union rep and would get caught up in all of this, and it was very difficult to pick through. People got very cross with her, as she was manipulative and clever with it, but there was always a possibility that she was right, and that others were 'picking on her'.

Also a child experiencing comorbid bullying, will have a worse experience than a child that isn't.

So Prejudicial bullying could come with all of the others meaning Prejudicial is the worst experience

But the point is that all of those subjects for bullying, ginger hair, spec wearers, disabilities, sexual preferences, race or religion are roundly condemned by most adults. Racial bullying only began to reduce when there was a concerted effort in schools and sport to get rid of it (Show Racism the Red Card). It is unlikely that trans bullying will stop until it is roundly condemned. So it isn't appropriate to say it's just another form. Teachers have been addressing those other subjects for years, now they are trapped into being abused if they try to stop it and accused of supporting bullying