Tavistock Gender Clinic to close - it failed vulnerable under-18s

It's just astonishing that medical professionals thought it was fine to continue like that.

Thank you Dickens, and I apologise if I got the tone of your post wrong.

It's not your fault at all, but it feels that there have been a lot of posts lately lumping together 'the gender critical' (often referred to on here as 'some people') and accusing us of bullying 'allies' off the boards - even when it is clear that nothing of the sort has taken place as it is obvious that they are still here. We have also been accused of closing down discussions when in fact the closing down is done when 'allies' refuse to answer questions that would clarify their position, and flounce from a thread, leaving us talking to ourselves. Ironically, we are then accused of being boring and living in an echo chamber. The obvious response to that would be to join in a discussion and broaden it by adding a different viewpoint, or at least to answer questions that would offer the potential for us to change our minds, even a little bit, but this doesn't happen. We are told to 'educate ourselves' or our questions are just ignored.

I know that you are not guilty of this, and maybe I shouldn't have jumped on your post, but lately there seems to be a trend of people claiming not to have an opinion, or, like growstuff on this thread suggesting that 'trans threads' are usually beneath their notice, but then going on to accuse us of extremism and suggesting that it is 'the gender critical' who are obsessed with labels, when IMO the reverse is the case. I mistakenly assumed that your post was going to be more of the same, and I shouldn't have done so.

Glorianny how do you explain what you describe as 'the huge increase in the number of children needing help'?

This is one of the questions that a lot of people struggle with. Why has there been an explosion in the number of young people feeling that they are 'in the wrong body' when this was a rare occurrence that most of us did not come across at all when we were young? I have explained my take on this in my answer to growstuff at 09:29 upthread, but wonder what your own view might be.

This is one of the questions that a lot of people struggle with. Why has there been an explosion in the number of young people feeling that they are 'in the wrong body' when this was a rare occurrence that most of us did not come across at all when we were young?
I would think this explosion would trigger most sane people who would be immediately asking "how, why, when" and desperately searching for answers and explanations. Most people would be horrified at such an increase in numbers over such a short time. If the number of murders increased by the same ratio over the same timescale it would be headline news on every outlet. But when it's girls wanting to transition to boys, then it's a handwave and on to more important stuff.

No doodledog I didn't write that trans threads are beneath my notice. They make me quite angry, so I move on usually.

Incidentally, I haven't accused anybody of being an extremist or "gender critical". Stop imagining things and playing the victim.

Thanks for your response Doodledog.

I am attempting to be as objective as is possible with such an emotive, and seemingly inflammatory, subject.

And in spite of the accusations from one side to the other, I genuinely believe most of this discourse is being conducted in a civilised fashion. I can't help but notice this in comparison with some other social media sites, either. I didn't mean to damn with faint praise - but the difference is notable.

Regarding the "explosion" in the number of young people feeling they are in the wrong body, I can only think that it follows the same principle as Parkinson's Law, in that it will expand according to the resources available to deal with it.

I remember well that as an 8 year old girl, I felt extremely irritated by the restrictions that prevented me from taking part in activities that were more fun and more interesting than those allotted to girls in the 40s and 50s. This gradually grew into a resentment of my female body and the damned clothing I was expected to wear to cover it. BUT, there were no social media sites where I could discuss this, no avenues to go down, no organisations catering for it, otherwise I would have sure as hell pursued them. The family accepted me as a 'tom-boy', indulged my preferences without comment and gradually the resentment waned as I matured - although to this day, I still prefer trousers to dresses and have no interest in what are considered to be 'girly' pastimes (like 'pamper' sessions, etc). All purely anecdotal, non of it traumatic to me, so not in any way representative of the real dysmorphia felt by some young people - this is just to illustrate the lack of understanding or recognition of such problems suffered by young children and teenagers previously.

The link posted by grannydarkhair, for the Kemi Badenoch article, now has a paywall.
It can be read from here :

archive.ph/2022.07.30-172911/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-tavistock-scandal-shows-the-dangers-of-civil-service-groupthink-5bj2z26c7

And screenshot of a comment.

I am hoping that the way things are moving in Europe will mean a less inflammatory approach. I have just read an interesting comment about why Europe is changing its approach whilst America is doubling down. It is feminists who have mostly led the debate in Europe whilst in America it has become a battleground between left and right. So that becomes the goodies and baddies in the world of social media in particular.

I know what you mean, Dickens. I don't remember wanting to be a boy, but I know it wasn't uncommon in my own (60s/70s) childhood, and I do remember thinking that the differences in our childhoods were deeply unfair. My brother had a lot more freedom than my sisters and me - not just in where he was allowed to go, or what he was allowed to do, but things he could say. We had to be 'ladylike', and our entire vocabulary was policed, whereas boys could say things in male company that they were sanctioned for if in mixed company. Swearing, obviously, but also topics that should or shouldn't be mentioned and ways of expressing emotions of all kinds were very 'gendered' and gender was firmly based on sex. I firmly believe that language is very important, and controlling things like vocabulary is a very effective way of controlling someone's life. There were huge differences between what was expected of him and us, on a daily basis as well as for adult life. We were expected to marry and take 'jobs' to help out the household budget, whereas he was expected to have a career that would support a family. That attitude was common then, and may have felt as oppressive to boys as it was to girls, but it did lead to an imbalance of power between the sexes, as the easiest way for women to 'succeed' was to marry the man with the most promise. Girls were put into competition with one another, and the dynamic between the sexes was skewed in favour of the 'breadwinners' who often had the final say on important things. School was very different too, with boys being taught more interesting subjects and again, being socialised differently from girls.

Things have moved on, fortunately; but some of these divisions will remain and others have been added. Someone mentioned porn, which I agree is a very negative influence on young people, and social media bring their own problems too.

I don't know if there has ever been a time to be young that is 'better' than others. Each generation has good and bad influences. The big difference today, though, is that not being happy with the gender roles ascribed to one sex or the other is being dealt with by medicating out of it, with surgery at one end of the scale and 'identification' at the other. I think that it would be better for both society as a whole and for individual people if we could remove some of the gender-based expectations instead of cramming people back into them with drugs, binders or surgery.

PS growstuff, that's not what I said. I said that you are among those who claim to find the subject 'boring', say you don't bother to read threads about it, yet join in just to put us right. The other comments (eg calling us 'extremists') were more general. I mentioned your name as you are on this thread, and I am not a fan of the passive aggressive 'some posters' way of making a point.

Doodledog

I think that it would be better for both society as a whole and for individual people if we could remove some of the gender-based expectations instead of cramming people back into them with drugs, binders or surgery.

Oh, I so agree with that sentiment.

If people were free to express themselves without the limitations of these expectations and without the condemnation of those who impose and uphold them, we might be in a better place than we are now.

Does a man with a beard have to identify as a woman in order to wear a dress? Sounds outlandish, but I wear men's jeans because I like wearing them, and no-one bats an eyelid. What is the difference? What if the man just feels more comfortable in a dress / skirt / sarong?

I had a friend (years ago now) whose son aged around 9 had beautiful long red hair and wanted it to be curly, he also wanted to learn to play the violin at the same time as being passionate about football. I have this memory of him sitting on the sofa one day - his hair tightly wrapped in curling-paper, playing the violin with his long spidery legs dangling from the seat encased in huge football boots with dried mud dropping off them, waiting to go for a game. I don't know if he identified with anything other than being himself and I don't believe he gave it much thought either because no one was placing any restrictions on him. OK, another purely anecdotal reference and it's not data, nor does it signify much other than the possibility that if young people are allowed to express themselves in any way they see fit, there might not be such angst, worry and confusion. The biggest drawback to that though comes from their own peer group. Children and teenagers are very critical of each other - but where do they learn that? Is it a natural tendency, or are they taught to be so critical? I have no idea.

A lot of family are raising children without gender norms.

This may have the benifit of children not feeling that they have to identify as a different gender in order to express themselves.

It also has the benefit that children feel they are able to come out as LGBTQ and be accepted by their families... Well their nuclear families at least, not all family members agree and support them unfortunately.

I dont think you can raise children without gender norms unless you isolate them from society. I work in early years all the boys wear the dresses and dressing up shoes, its completely different by age 6. It's very difficult to tackle those gender norms that appear to becoming more rigid.

I wear men's jeans because I like wearing them, and no-one bats an eyelid

But it's within living memory, just about, that that was considered shocking too.
There are still circumstances where skirts are insisted on for female people - the uniforms of many schools, for instance.
Instead of validating 'trans' identity by allowing a pupil to wear the 'opposite sex uniform' it would be better if schools had unisex uniform for all - or even a choice of skirt or trousers for everyone.

As for children criticising each other, I think it's a combination of natural inclination and the circumstances aroound them.
Children have to learn, all the time, what is acceptable and what isn't - as a normal part of life. So it's natural that someone who has learnt a rule, whether it's a real rule or not, wants to make sure that others follow it too.

I would love the gender neutral uniform.

Even just because in secondary the girls uniform is so much more expensive. Has to be a school shirt and skirt when the boys can just buy any white shirt and black trousers.

Talk about pink tax starting young

Why am I expected to explain the increase in the number of transgender children. I have no idea. Perhaps it's because children are listened to more and their views considered, perhaps there's something in the water, perhaps it's pollution, there are a million possibilities (I once had a taxi driver tell me vapour trails in the sky were the government spraying us to keep us calm!!)
They exist, they need care and consideration. It's not my job or my concern to wonder why. I just accept them.

We dont do that with medical care. It's not how it works. Someone needs to look at that issue with urgency, (not you to be fair) in the way they would look at any unexplained change.

Anecdotally in my area we seem to have an increase in children being referred to speech and language this year, the explanation (lockdown) would seem to be obvious but we tend not to ignore these fluctuations, particularly if they are affecting one part of society at a disproportionate rate. This doesnt mean we dont care for those children, in fact the absolute opposite.

Many have understood and accepted that people are born gay and there is no medical or environmental factor or its not the devil (depending on your beliefs).

As acceptance rose, more gay people came out.

I think it's just the same thing.

Ten years ago, trans people weren't on my radar. Now I stand with many saying, you are welcome and accepted.

More trans people coming forward is the same normal response to feeling safe to do so.

Yet things are now going backwards

I hope that doesn't scare people away from being their authentic selves but I think it will.

We can't base medical treatment on those thoughts though, its leading to poorer outcomes for the new cohort ( f to m) as the model of intervention was based on m to f transition.

Glorianny

Why am I expected to explain the increase in the number of transgender children. I have no idea. Perhaps it's because children are listened to more and their views considered, perhaps there's something in the water, perhaps it's pollution, there are a million possibilities (I once had a taxi driver tell me vapour trails in the sky were the government spraying us to keep us calm!!)
They exist, they need care and consideration. It's not my job or my concern to wonder why. I just accept them.

You "accept them" as being the opposite sex if they say so?
Do you do the same for people who say they are too fat, if they aren't?
Have I missed seeing you on 'Anorexia Rights' threads saying we just need to accept what they say?
How about 'Jesus Rights' threads saying that you believe everyone who says they are God made mortal?

VS That's fine for adults who are not trying to impose themselves on others and are not overriding anyone's rights.

Children were not being encouraged to get involved in sexual relationships of any kind, or to decide their sexual orientation and base their whole life around that.
Young people were expected to find out their sexual orientation as they reached, and went beyond, puberty.

The idea of gender identity is being imposed on children. It is completely based on adults' obsession with stereotypes.

Galaxy

We can't base medical treatment on those thoughts though, its leading to poorer outcomes for the new cohort ( f to m) as the model of intervention was based on m to f transition.

Yes, I think this is a really important thing to raise galaxy.

Glorianny
Accepting people, children or adults as who or what they say they are is one thing. Accepting that they are allowed to do whatever they want is something else.
Is that what you do? Even if what they want to do is harmful to others and even to themselves?
Wanting there to be clinics where children are treated safely and not just put on a pathway that has not been proven to be safe at a clinic that has supported that harmful treatment is surely the aim of all.
FarNorth

FarNorth

^I wear men's jeans because I like wearing them, and no-one bats an eyelid^

But it's within living memory, just about, that that was considered shocking too.
There are still circumstances where skirts are insisted on for female people - the uniforms of many schools, for instance.
Instead of validating 'trans' identity by allowing a pupil to wear the 'opposite sex uniform' it would be better if schools had unisex uniform for all - or even a choice of skirt or trousers for everyone.

As for children criticising each other, I think it's a combination of natural inclination and the circumstances aroound them.
Children have to learn, all the time, what is acceptable and what isn't - as a normal part of life. So it's natural that someone who has learnt a rule, whether it's a real rule or not, wants to make sure that others follow it too.

But it's within living memory, just about, that that was considered shocking too.

Oh, absolutely. I was not infrequently called a "Lezzie" when at age 13 I started wearing what had become fashionable - boy's jeans. I also had a huge 'ban-the-bomb' logo painted on one leg so I also got called a "commie Lezzie". By men. Who probably felt threatened by women wearing trousers. Some of them are still around and possibly still hold that view. Fortunately, the younger generation are somewhat more open-minded.

Instead of validating 'trans' identity by allowing a pupil to wear the 'opposite sex uniform' it would be better if schools had unisex uniform for all - or even a choice of skirt or trousers for everyone.

This, 100%. That would certainly break down some barriers. We might even eventually reach the stage where a man wearing a skirt was accepted in the same way women wearing jeans with flies is. I've seen fashion parades where men have been wearing skirts with shirts, ties and a jacket. Logically, why not?

If I was to list the many medical mistakes and wrong treatments that have been given (and are still being given) for all sorts of problems it would take up pages. Of course it isn't right, of course doctors and other professionals make mistakes they are human. But it doesn't solve the problem to castigate those who at least tried. Nor does it help any transgender child to say things like "I was a bit of a tomboy but I grew out of it." You wouldn't say to someone suffering a period of depression- just pull yourself together. The thing that I find most distasteful about these threads is the concern which may be genuine, but which wallows in every mistake and reported mistreatment, as if that justifies a view that all children have been badly served when treated.Especially when the real problem is that children are waiting so long for any sort of treatment or care. And I would imagine any child who was referred at 12 and gets a first appointment 4 years later will already have been in contact with a number of people, via social media,, and is way past the stage where they will accept anything other than the treatment they have learned is possible. If you think the problem is something that can be tackled and a child's mind can be changed you should be lobbying for early intervention and counselling and asking for a gender service in every city in the UK not celebrating because one clinic tried but failed.

The idea that gender identity is being imposed on children may be right, but as was shown in a recent TV programme the concepts about gender are so deeply lodged in our society it is virtually impossible to remove them. I remember how it was shown that physically pre puberty girls are as strong as boys but think they are weaker because of what they see in adults .