Tavistock Gender Clinic to close - it failed vulnerable under-18s

They choose to think of themselves as females and that's what they are.

Of course they are not female.
In connection with their physical health, they need to be aware that they are male.

In ordinary life, it doesn't matter if they give the impression of being girls or women and I would have no interest in 'exposing' anyone.
There would be no danger of 'exposing', tho, if everyone was honest about who is female or male.
Just as there is no longer a danger of gay people being 'exposed' (in the UK).

This is straying from the point, tho, which is that not all young people make the best choices for themselves and the Tavistock clinic has seriously failed those who came to them for help.

One of the most difficult aspects of all this (thinking about Prof. Bell's comments) is the fear some therapists had that some young people had been rehearsed or coached by adults into what to say in order to speed up the process of accessing hormone disrupting therapy.

A short film about puberty blockers.

youtu.be/oTf1gPZaBWg

Thank you grannydarkhair.

Glorianny
Imagining that closing one clinic will stop children doing things themselves to change the body they are dissatisfied with is just ridiculous.
Now imagine doing nothing about a clinic that has done harm to so many children-even more ridiculous!
What sort of message does that send to children who are dissatisfied about their bodies? or do you advocate that a harmful clinic is better than none at all?
“Come along to the TC. We we may make your lives even worse than they are now and ruin your futures whilst we do it.”

Close a clinic that has caused harm and offer better help and treatment.

It us worrying what will happen to these vulnerable trapped in a body they now regret. Betrayed by people that were in a position of trust. Surely it must be medical incompentacy.

When I was fifteen I wanted to travel the world, never marry or have children. Then I fell in love, married, had children and went to Cornwall on holiday. You change so much as teenagers.

trapped in a body they now regret

You're right All-sorts.
We don't usually hear about being trapped in a trans body but it does happen.

You change so much as teenagers.

You certainly do if you go to the Tavistock gids Allsorts.

Allsorts

When I was fifteen I wanted to travel the world, never marry or have children. Then I fell in love, married, had children and went to Cornwall on holiday. You change so much as teenagers.

It's far from unusual to know people who followed a career path, met a partner, had children and were convinced this is who they were and the life they wanted. Later they separate, go down a different life and career path, and find they're happier. All these are valid decisions made as adults. And yet there are some who are convinced children and adolescents are able to make irreversible decisions about their bodies from age 11 or so. Decisions that can demand lifelong permanent medication, predispose them to life limiting conditions, and irreversibly alter their physical bodies. And anyone who counsels caution or concern is a bigot out to ruin lives?

We don't usually hear about being trapped in a trans body but it does happen. Yes, and not always to young people with good cognisance. Elaine Miller actually cites an old person who transgendered in old age, then got dementia and 'forgot' they'd transgendered and was severely distressed at being dressed 'wrongly'. What a horrendous state of affairs at the end of your life, to live with that level of distress.

Such a shame that what was a brilliant pressure/campaigning group ie Stonewall who had achieved their aims, decided to go where the $$$ are and ditched their founding causes in favour of more lucrative directions. To say they've sold lesbians down the river is an understatement.

Sorry Rosie51 but anecdotal evidence isn't really that valuable. What about people who are genuinely trans?

I don't understand how lesbians have been sold down the river. Some people aren't lesbians - they're trans and want to live as men. Trying to persuade trans people that they are homosexual is cruel. Of course any fundamental change must be accompanied by sensitive and extensive counselling.

It's baffling that people are complaining about a vocal trans lobby because it seems to me that the anti-trans lobby (certainly on GN) is fairly vocal and I don't really understand why other people's lives are any of their business.

Just posting this here as I don’t want to start another thread.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/what-happened-to-harry-last-night?r=k9z5j&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

A short interview with Dr David Bell.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/finally?r=k9z5j&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Sorry growstuff but anecdotal evidence isn't really that valuable, so those two happy trans people you know aren't proof of anything.

Lesbians have been sold down the river by Stonewall & others insisting that they should be willing to have sexual relationships with male people who say they are lesbians.

www.spiked-online.com/2021/10/28/the-homophobia-of-the-trans-lobby/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

A link to what NHS England has said :
www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/gender-dysphoria-clinical-programme/implementing-advice-from-the-cass-review/

And to Dr Cass's advice :
cass.independent-review.uk/publications/

It's baffling that people are complaining about a vocal trans lobby because it seems to me that the anti-trans lobby (certainly on GN) is fairly vocal and I don't really understand why other people's lives are any of their business.

Being "vocal" is one thing. The TG community has as much right as any other demographic to be just that. Being physically disruptive, aggressive, and threatening acts of violence to others whose opinions oppose theirs, is a whole other story.

Other people's lives are the business of anyone whose own lives are impacted by their opinions and their choices.

Other people's lives are the business of anyone whose own lives are impacted by their opinions and their choices.

Exactly.

Dickens Fair enough! I agree that nobody has the right to be physically disruptive, aggressive and threatening acts of violence to those with different opinions. I also agree that people's lives matter when their own life is impacted.

I guess the problem I have is that the whole issue seems to have become so polarised and politicised. I have no reason to doubt that the Tavistock failed some of its patients clinically, but I hope that its closure doesn't weaponise those who seem to believe that transitioning is always wrong.

I'm not hugely interested in identity politics, so I tend to ignore it. My take has always been that people are humans and I'm not really bothered by labels. My concern is that some people see gender dysphoria as a sort of mental illness which can be cured. Of course, some people with gender dysphoria develop mental illnesses as a result of the bullying they experience and feeling of not belonging and/or other reasons and that all needs unpicking before any medical intervention. However, I truly believe that there are some people who are born in the wrong body and don't identify with the sex they're assigned at birth. No definitive reason has ever been found (as far as I'm aware), but there are some indications that hormones in some people don't behave as expected. There have even been rare cases where sex at birth is indeterminate because reproductive organs haven't developed properly. It really isn't true to claim that an X or Y chromosome determines sex in all cases.

Chewbacca

^Other people's lives are the business of anyone whose own lives are impacted by their opinions and their choices.^

Exactly.

Has yours been?

All women have been impacted growstuff

Chewbacca

All women have been impacted growstuff

How?

There have even been rare cases where sex at birth is indeterminate because reproductive organs haven't developed properly.
If those were the only people involved, it would be a very tiny proportion of the population.

Have you read about 'Rainbow', who is being publicised by GirlGuiding?
Rainbow is a boy whose parents & their friends couldn't cope with his liking things that are not standard for boys.

That is very like the situation for the son of Susie Green (CEO of Mermaids) and for every account of a 'trans' child that I've seen.

girlguiding.foleon.com/guiding-magazine/guiding-summer-2022/rainbow-girl

www.ted.com/talks/susie_green_transgender_a_mother_s_story?language=en

Should a lesbian be willing to have sex with ANY man who has transitioned to a woman but still prefers women as sexual partners? If she is forced to act willing so as to comply with their interpretation of the law, then she would not be willingly agreeing. She would be in exactly the same position as a wife used to be in the past, when her husband had the right to sex whether she wanted it or not. Saying they are lesbian doesn't automatically make one lesbian attractive to another.

Perhaps it is a transfer of some transwomen's own attitudes. It is a very male trait to find ANY female attractive if they are feeling horny. Dugongs and manatees were perceived as beautiful mermaids by frustrated sailors. By expecting that the mere facts that they ID as women, are lesbian and are available will make female lesbians pant with desire, they display how much masculinity still lurks within them.

If you are referring to those with a dsd growstuff as I have mentioned before they have begged not to be dragged into this debate and have also pointed out that they are either Male or female not some third sex or indeterminate. I am an atheist so I cant believe in born in the wrong body, and that's one of the phrases that organisations have stopped using when people pointed out the dangers in telling young people their bodies were wrong.