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the law as it stands on sex - part 3

(338 Posts)
Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 09:11:32

Two thousand posts so far!

To pick up where we left off, I’ll repeat my post from the end of the last thread - I got home too late to get any answers or many comments. I’ll keep the formatting to make it easier to bold, but will lost the bold type or italics:

I’ve been out this evening, so am just catching up with the thread, and have a few questions, if that’s ok.

trisher, you seem to find a lot of this funny, but I don’t see it like that at all.

What was the point of the ‘spot the transwoman’ game?

As Galaxy says, you are quick to label others, and I wouldn’t have thought being called an ‘ally’ would have struck you as offensive, but if you don’t like it I will try to remember not to use it in relation to you. Perhaps you would remember that many people on here (me included) find ‘cis’ offensive, and would return the favour?

I also see myself as someone who believes in human rights and equality. I posted the Amnesty list of human rights on this very thread, after VS insisted that the human rights of transpeople were being abused. I asked which ones were being denied, but there was no response from either of you.

Human rights are very important to me, but I really don’t think that being allowed to undress in front of the opposite sex is a human right, and can’t see anything on the Amnesty list that is being denied to transpeople. If you think otherwise, please state which ones they are, and I’ll reconsider.

VS, You say:
Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't
Can you please explain what you mean by that? I see it trotted out a lot, but nobody who repeats it has explained how it relates to the following situations:
Where there are people whose rights to undress in a single sex environment is violated by people asking for the right to use that environment as members of the opposite sex.

Where people want the right to compete fairly in a sport that they have trained for for years, but that right is violated by those who have stronger and differently proportioned bodies insisting on competing against them.

When people want the right to have agency over who touches them intimately but that right is violated by someone who does not declare their male sex to female patients/clients.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts, as I do see those things as violations of the rights of one group of people by another.

Also, what is it that you think that legislation has dealt with fairly, please?

FarNorth Fri 06-May-22 19:50:22

Allison Bailey speaking in court.

"Allison Bailey: Stonewall’s activism is ‘like protection racket’"

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/allison-bailey-stonewall-activism-charity-lgbtq-protection-racket-gc9g660kj?shareToken=7d50a4a6e868942eda46d2a9698e695d&fbclid=IwAR0SubeBTkb0ECqc7qqjDIwfeE6jCe1OULre-6FeQq_XwU58S3xJinlGObg

Chewbacca Fri 06-May-22 22:03:45

A protection racket is precisely what it is FarNorth; I'm desperately hoping that Allison wins her case and that Stonewall is exposed for the misogynistic, anti gay bullies that they are. They've hung out to dry the very minorities of society that they were set up to support. I wish them a speedy, and catastrophic, downfall for all the harm they've caused Allison, Maya, Kathleen and many others.

Mollygo Sat 07-May-22 09:48:40

Re 04.05 @ 9:47
Productive meeting.
Something is going to be done! Forgive my cynicism but I’ll wait and see what happens.

Rosie51 Sat 07-May-22 11:18:05

Good about the productive meeting Mollygo, at least they've had to acknowledge the situation. Hope your cynicism turns out to be unfounded, and something is enacted immediately.

Doodledog Sun 08-May-22 09:22:21

Yes, I too hope that this can be nipped in the bud.

FarNorth Sun 08-May-22 19:48:58

An article by Judith Woods on the recent WPUK meeting in Bristol.

archive.ph/M7QT6

"A young woman with aquamarine hair is striding around with a megaphone leading a call and response, as a policewoman watches from a distance on a Bristol street.

“Trans rights are human rights!”
The motley crowd of students answer as one: “Trans rights are human rights!”

“Protect trans students!”
“Protect trans students!” they parrot.

Then she gets a little over-aerated: “Terfs can suck my boy d---.”
Nobody says a word, they just shuffle uncomfortably."

Doodledog Sun 08-May-22 20:00:07

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, so I'll laugh ?.

The whole chickdick/boydick thing is straight outta Jerry Springer The Opera. No wonder they were embarrassed.

Mollygo Sun 08-May-22 20:04:09

That’s an amazing article. It’s frightening that so many people when they say trans women are women actually believe that a magic wand can change someone’s sex.

Rosie51 Sun 08-May-22 23:38:42

Good article, thanks for the link FarNorth

Isn't it odd that natal women mustn't use the term 'women' but have to be cervix havers, vagina owners, birthing people etc but transwomen are women and can use the term freely? The only time we can use the term 'women' is when we are including men.

Doodledog Sun 08-May-22 23:46:26

Isn't it odd that natal women mustn't use the term 'women' but have to be cervix havers, vagina owners, birthing people etc but transwomen are women and can use the term freely? The only time we can use the term 'women' is when we are including men.
This is one of the reasons why I am so adamant about not ever using 'cis'. I always refer to women as women (I'm such a radical grin) and to transwomen as transwomen.

Rosie51 Sun 08-May-22 23:54:06

I won't use 'cis' either, don't like using 'natal' but figure it's less triggering to the TRAs than 'real' which is more accurate in common parlance. 'Cis' to me is a demeaning insult but the TRAs use it all the time, it's almost like they have no respect or consideration.

Doodledog Mon 09-May-22 01:54:50

Which, of course they don’t. Their whole agenda is misogynist and built on a total lack of respect for women.

Chewbacca Mon 09-May-22 16:58:19

Anne Robinson - who I really don't have much time for usually: TV legend Anne Robinson has waded into a transgender rights row - saying 'a woman is someone with a vagina'.

Anne added that she was aghast at what she called the lack of 'safety' in women-only spaces such as changing rooms at swimming pools. She said that she is worried about the allowing of transgender people who have not undergone sex reassignment surgery into these spaces.

'I'm horrified by the lack of safety in women's changing rooms, at swimming pools and that sort of thing. The most interesting statistic is that the amount of trans [people] who actually surgically get altered is miniscule. So you are talking about men in women's changing rooms.'
Anne told the Telegraph she had never met anyone 'who hates the idea that we can define a woman with common sense.

'I've never met this person that's so angry. I suspect they're angry [anyway] and this has been quite good to latch on to.'

The comments on this are 99% in agreement with her. Wonder if she'll be cancelled for having the audacity to point out the obvious?

Mollygo Mon 09-May-22 18:33:51

Chewbacca
Wonder if she'll be cancelled for having the audacity to point out the obvious?
Possibly not, but her leaving Countdown will be attributed to her having had the audacity to state the truth.

DiamondLily Tue 10-May-22 07:09:27

Anne Robinson is of the age, wealth and temperament that she probably doesn't give a monkey's about being cancelled, trolled or whatever.

There's nothing much they can do to her, and kudos to her for speaking out, and saying the obvious.?

SueDonim Tue 10-May-22 12:25:33

Spot the AHF in this article about HRT. Clue: you won’t be able to. hmm. I’ve just asked my Dh how, as an individual, his menopause went. He said he didn’t notice it.

jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2791692

Rosie51 Tue 10-May-22 13:14:05

SueDonim the work that goes into these articles to studiously avoid mentioning this is something only women, females, will have to contend with ? They just don't care about the vast majority of women who would prefer to see sexed language, instead doing anything to appease the teeny minority who don't like it.
My individual DH not only didn't notice his menopause, he also hadn't been aware of menstruating, but then he can be spectacularly unobservant at times grin

Mollygo Tue 10-May-22 15:05:02

Rosie51
^My individual DH not only didn't notice his menopause, he also hadn't been aware of menstruating, but then he can be spectacularly unobservant at times.^??

Mine was equally unobservant, however after I shared the info about HRT keeping you younger looking, he asked if I thought it was too late for him to try it.

Rosie51 Tue 10-May-22 16:20:11

grin and your answer....... ? ??

Mollygo Tue 10-May-22 19:05:02

To me dear Mr M, you look as good as ever, (especially since he’s been using my moisturiser!)

SueDonim Tue 10-May-22 19:32:13

grin Rosie and Molly.

DiamondLily Wed 11-May-22 07:52:44

The producer of the Family Sex Show, discussed on this thread, explains why the show was cancelled, in the Guardian (where else?) ?:

"I am the producer and co-creator of a piece of theatre that was cancelled before it had even been seen. It started like this: a group of people online began to call for the show to be shut down. It gained some traction and led to a petition on the platform Citizen Go, which is believed to have links with extremist hard-right Christian groups in the US.

The outcry on social media and the subsequent petition used words and ideologies that are rooted in queerphobia, racism, fatphobia, ableism, misogyny and transphobia."

Oh right. Nothing to do with most of not wanting children exposed to all this? lol

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/10/cancel-culture-rightwing-activists-family-sex-show

Mollygo Wed 11-May-22 08:39:35

DiamondLily
Unbelievable really. I suppose using words like
extremist hard-right Christian groups in the US.
The outcry on social media and the subsequent petition used words and ideologies that are rooted in queerphobia, racism, fatphobia, ableism, misogyny and transphobia makes him feel justified in not mentioning the potential harm to children and opportunities for some sick people to persuade themselves that if they’ve seen it on a show it must be OK to risk that or exploit those scenes with children, for their own enjoyment.

DiamondLily Wed 11-May-22 14:37:53

Mollygo

DiamondLily
Unbelievable really. I suppose using words like
extremist hard-right Christian groups in the US.
The outcry on social media and the subsequent petition used words and ideologies that are rooted in queerphobia, racism, fatphobia, ableism, misogyny and transphobia makes him feel justified in not mentioning the potential harm to children and opportunities for some sick people to persuade themselves that if they’ve seen it on a show it must be OK to risk that or exploit those scenes with children, for their own enjoyment.

I think the producer is missing the point of why people were objecting.

It wasn't about right wing groups - it was about parents, grandparents etc with enough common sense to understand what sort of creeps and weirdos this sort of thing would attract.?

I wouldn't have taken my kids or grandchildren - there are ways to teach children about healthy relationships, and this isn't it.

Besides which, I would imagine most children would be bored out of their minds at this rubbish.

At 5 years old they want Disney, pantos, fun days etc.

SueDonim Wed 11-May-22 16:22:27

Amongst all those ‘isms’ that producer’s age-ism was clearly on display. hmm She seems to have selective memory too. The Googling of animal masturbation seems to have been forgotten, for a start.