Julia Hartley-Brewer v Stella Creasy

coastpath I’m sure the women that were recruited with your policies were so grateful.

Women who quietly get on with things and prove their reliability do a much greater service to other women than those who kick up a fuss and demand change

I blooming well wish more women who do get on with things and prove their reliability would also kick up the most stinking fuss and then we might reduce the 15% gender pay gap and have a more family friendly work culture.

I worked for 30 years in employment law and human resources. I spent a great deal of my career introducing family friendly policies, child care provision and flexible working practices. In every single instance these policies improved staff satisfaction, productivity and retention. They reduced sickness and made recruitment easier. They were always cost effective.

There was always resistance to introducing these policies and not just from men. However, when they were up and working, the resistance melted away and management acknowledged the positive outcomes.

Firefighters might not be able to breastfeed on the job but there are ALWAYS improvements to policies which can be made to ease the problems faced by a firefighter who is also a parent

I chose not to have children so as to concentrate on my career. I don't regret it for a moment. I am happy and proud to have spent much of my working life ensuring that other women could have a satisfying career and contribute to our society without compromising the absolute priority which was raising their healthy, happy children.

volver

^The NZ PM takes her baby to work but do you ever see it on a broadcast with her? Someone else must be looking after it.^

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/25/jacinda-ardern-makes-history-with-baby-neve-at-un-general-assembly

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-49421455

Ohh, I just noticed this from earlier:

Imagine if the UN General Assembly had babies clutched to their mothers during these extremely serious times.

Women who quietly get on with things and prove their reliability do a much greater service to other women than those who kick up a fuss and demand change

You’ll be shocked to hear, I completely disagree with this antiquated way of thinking.

Women who go along with the status quo actually make it much harder for others who choose not to.

Women deserve more than trying to make themselves smaller to fit into a box.

Yammy I often say I live on a different planet to most on here ,when I was young the mantra was that a new baby should slot into your life NOT take it over. I didn't know ANYONE who stayed at home when they had a baby ...no one.Most went back to work in offices and factories within 6 weeks,some lucky to have creches ,some shared child care with friends or family .No one had a husband who stayed at home .
My mothers generation was the same in our street there were two women who didn't work ,one was my mother the other an older mother who was more my granny's age and had a son my age ,born in her mid forties .I thought the whole SAHM thing was very odd,especially people who still sat at home when their kids went to school .
I did think life had moved on but apparently not .Of course its daft to expect a fireman/woman or surgeon to take baby to work but where its possible it should be acceptable .

The NZ PM takes her baby to work but do you ever see it on a broadcast with her? Someone else must be looking after it.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/25/jacinda-ardern-makes-history-with-baby-neve-at-un-general-assembly

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-49421455

I think if you opt to have children then sometimes there have to be compromises. I don't see why a small baby is a problem in the House of Commons.
As someone else said surely it must be possible to have remote voting.
I had to turn down a Ward Sister post when my daughter was a baby as you had to work full time in those days. I was so disappointed but had to put the needs of ny child first.

This is true. And they enjoy working up to the very last minute before Christmas for the same reason. If I’m allowed to speak from experience.

Germanshepherdsmum

volver and Daisy, it’s helpful when people speak from real experience rather than theorising I think. I don’t wish to marginalise anyone nor cause grief where childlessness is a sadness. But I defend my right to speak of my own experience where it’s relevant. A lived experience is worth more than a shedload of theorising IMO.

I consider my 40 years in academia and industry to be "real experience" rather than theorising GSM.

However implying that the childlessness of the person you are talking to is a source of sadness, rather than choice; that's theorising.

I remember discussing with a friend why meetings with men involved always took longer and, yet didn't seem to acheive much more, than shorter women led meetings. We decided that men actually liked to spin things out, possibly so they didn't get home until the meal was started and the kids were getting ready for bed, whereas women wanted to get through things and go home to their kids.

But anecdote is not data.

volver and Daisy, it’s helpful when people speak from real experience rather than theorising I think. I don’t wish to marginalise anyone nor cause grief where childlessness is a sadness. But I defend my right to speak of my own experience where it’s relevant. A lived experience is worth more than a shedload of theorising IMO.

paddyann54

A small baby in a sling wont be any problem in the H of C. I went back to work when my baby was 8 DAYS old self employed ,new business she slept in the pram in the corner .When she was a toddler she pottered about and chatted to anyone who came in .She was with me until she started nursery 3 mornings a week ,then before and after nursery untl school.
It was mainly men who worked for us so 45 years ago they didn't expect to care (much) for their children but we did have the rare woman who brought a wee one in a day or two a week .They were never a problem.
Surely we should be applauding mothers who take their babies with them,it doesn't prevent her doing her job,she can still talk or vote with a baby tied to her chest ,Didn'the NZ PM take her wee one to work with her ?

As Callistimon says parents need to compromise. It all depends on where you work and what kind of work it is, to be able to take your baby /child with you, i.e.Firefighter.
Well and good if the Work supplies nurseries or creche and the woman can leave her work for a while while she goes and feeds. Though if we want equality with men we need to be able to fulfil our job to the standard they do and that isn't always possible with a child around. Or a corner of the office full of prams and a lot of jobs can't be done from home.
The NZ PM takes her baby to work but do you ever see it on a broadcast with her? Someone else must be looking after it.
What we should be aiming for women is that if they take years out to care for family, their career doesn't suffer and they don't have to start at the bottom and work their way up again. I do know examples of this.

Can we as well dismiss the myth that things are getting better in the workplace for women. They did briefly while our male dominated businesses absorbed the hard fought for legislation which protected women who wanted a career and a baby, once they'd done so they began to find ways round it, and now getting pregnant can mean saying "goodbye" to your job. It's done at the optimum time so you will be too busy, too worried and unable to start legislation in the right time. It's a step backwards for women. Pregnant then Screwed wants the period for bringing action against an employer lengthened from 3 months to 6 months. pregnantthenscrewed.com/campaigns/

Callistemon21

^Why do women attack women who want equality?^

I did suggest that her husband could gt a desk job with better hours.

Parents need to compromise if they want to have children.
Children deserve better.

Child-rearing is a joint job but unfortunately until we all evolve into hermaphrodites the bearing and feeding of children will fall to the mother.
We are not attacking equality I would be the first to defend that but biologically we are the only ones who can do it . Therefore adjustments have to be made in home life to take this into account.
I agree little children deserve better and so do the poorer in our society who often have to give up breastfeeding to return to work so that their salary can help.

Lucca

Germanshepherdsmum

I would like to know whether volver and Daisy had children and if so what work they did when their children were small. I’ve shared my own experience. Would either of you, who are enjoying telling me how behind the times I am and generally criticising my attitude, care to share?

Volver already said she doesn’t have babies,

Although why that is relevant I don’t know. We can comment on things of which we don’t have direct experience surely ?

Through much of my life I have been marginalised in certain situations with the comment that I can't possibly know, I don't have babies. I'm over it, really. I don't even bother replying any more, its such a pathetic argument.

However I have worked for 40 years in mainly male oriented industries (sorry for repeating myself) and have direct experience of how introducing child friendly policies have improved the lives and job prospects of women in those industries and contributed to the success of the organisations I worked for.

A small baby in a sling wont be any problem in the H of C. I went back to work when my baby was 8 DAYS old self employed ,new business she slept in the pram in the corner .When she was a toddler she pottered about and chatted to anyone who came in .She was with me until she started nursery 3 mornings a week ,then before and after nursery untl school.
It was mainly men who worked for us so 45 years ago they didn't expect to care (much) for their children but we did have the rare woman who brought a wee one in a day or two a week .They were never a problem.
Surely we should be applauding mothers who take their babies with them,it doesn't prevent her doing her job,she can still talk or vote with a baby tied to her chest ,Didn'the NZ PM take her wee one to work with her ?

Germanshepherdsmum

I would like to know whether volver and Daisy had children and if so what work they did when their children were small. I’ve shared my own experience. Would either of you, who are enjoying telling me how behind the times I am and generally criticising my attitude, care to share?

Volver already said she doesn’t have babies,

Although why that is relevant I don’t know. We can comment on things of which we don’t have direct experience surely ?

Germanshepherdsmum

DaisyAnne

Why do you need to keep telling us about your career GSM? I don't know as much about anyone else's and can't remember anyone else going into such detail. I have got the idea from a few that their jobs gave them insight into the issue being discussed but I don't have such in-depth knowledge of anyone else's CV.

You did brilliantly. Well done.

As for my personal life, that's what it is and that's how it stays but I wouldn't be as arrogant to think my experience was mine alone.

If you castigate me but share nothing of your own experience, simply spout vitriol, how can I take you seriously?

Don't. We would both probably find that easier.

If Stella Creasey wanted to raise an important issue for working women, box ticked.
If Stella Creasey wanted to represent her constituents in HoC, box ticked.

The H o C is a workplace which runs on archaic male dominated lines.

Possibly, CoolCoco

But do you want MPs to pack up and go home at 5.30pm when there is a crisis which needs to be debated and voted upon urgently?
It's just not possible.

Don't know her childcare circumstances.

She did have a pet millionaire though.

Margaret Thatcher got to be Prime Minister
Did she have a nanny?
Or were the twins at school by the time she became an MP?

What's wrong with remote voting? Or allowing maternity cover?

Remote voting could work, couldn't it?
Maternity cover wouldn't without a constituency vote for whoever was covering.

Being an MP is not like other jobs. I'm sure the cost of nannies would be added to expenses anyway. We pay for so much else for them.

Germanshepherdsmum

volver

Sorry GSM, but the myth that if you just do your job well and follow the rules then you'll get the recognition, that doesn't work in real life.

How strange that I achieved what I did then.

Just before the cuppa...

Margaret Thatcher got to be Prime Minister. That doesn't mean any woman who grew up above a grocer's in middle England would get to be Prime Minster.

The whole idea that anyone can say "Oh I managed, so there's no reason anybody else can't", that's pulling up the ladder after you.