David Lammy on LBC

He's English because he was born there and wants to be English. That's all that's required, in my book. Actually even if he hadn't been born there, but if he moved there and took part in and contributed to the civic life of the country.

I assume that calling English an "ethic" group is a typo, but how apt....

Chestnut

I think most people are proud of their ethnic group, even though they have taken on the nationality of the country they live or were born in. Most people want to know their ethnic origins, there are many programmes on TV on that very subject. And millions are taking DNA tests to find out what groups their ancestors were. Your nationality and your ethnicity are not the same thing.
David Lammy has obviously had a DNA test as he mentions being Afro Caribbean and also Scottish. Presumably his test did not show English, so in a way Jean was right, he cannot say his ethnic group is English. He can say his nationality is British, as I also would.
For the record English does come up as an ethic group for DNA purposes, as does Irish, Scottish and Welsh.

I’d respectfully disagree that most people are proud of their ethnic group. Personally I don’t even think about it. I always feel a bit odd when I’m asked to tick a box to state what it is. I do think this is a generational thing though. My children have no interest in ethnicity and neither do many of their friends. It also probably depends where you live I think?

Polar completely agree. Proud of my ethnic origins? ???They are nothing to do with me. I am however quite proud of a successful local campaign I ran and also of my cooking skills.

Research shows that there are clusters of DNA associated with certain regions of the UK and the world. It does NOT mean that the people who have that DNA originated from that region.

My own DNA shows that I am about half Norman/French, which is consistent with my family history research. However, it does not mean that I am French or even half-French and I have never ever associated myself with French identity.

I can trace 64 of my 5 x gt grandparents - on one line I can go even further. Every single one of them was born in England back to to the early/mid 18th century, but their ancestors came from other countries. Nevertheless, I am British. If I wanted to narrow that down, I'm English - more English than the majority of people in England.

This is the definition:
Nationality refers to the country of citizenship. Nationality is sometimes used to mean ethnicity, although the two are technically different. People can share the same nationality but be of different ethnic groups and people who share an ethnic identity can be of different nationalities.

No, it is not the definition. It is one definition and it is disputed.

Ethnicity is an entirely unscientific construct.

There is no such thing as a single English ethnic group.
You'd better take that up with Ancestry! They show English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh in your DNA profile, based on millions of DNA samples and scientific research.

When you get a passport it is based on your nationality, not your ethnicity. British is a nationality. English is an ethnicity, so you do not get an English passport. Irish is both a nationality and an ethnicity. Some people can't seem to understand the difference.

If you are female, mitochondrial testing cannot show up your overall ethnicity, as it only tests one specific line.

These tests evaluate large numbers of variations (single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs) across a person’s entire genome. The results are compared with those of others who have taken the tests to provide an estimate of a person's ethnic background. For example, the pattern of SNPs might indicate that a person's ancestry is approximately 50 percent African, 25 percent European, 20 percent Asian, and 5 percent unknown. Genealogists use this type of test because Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA test results, which represent only single ancestral lines, do not capture the overall ethnic background of an individual.

medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/dtcgenetictesting/ancestrytesting/#:~:text=Mitochondrial%20DNA%20testing,genetic%20variations%20in%20mitochondrial%20DNA.&text=Genealogists%20use%20this%20type%20of,ethnic%20background%20of%20an%20individual.

Yes, I'm sure Ancestry makes loads of money from their tests.

Sorry Chestnut We're not going to agree. Ethnicity is an unscientific concept. As I posted above, I am more French than anything else, but I have never identified as French and never will.

I agree with growstuff, Chestnut. You can chose to take that as your one definition, but every word has a multiplicity of connotations.

And if Ancestry is as good as you recommend it as being, you will know that the Anglo Saxons were not English, they were the descendants of three different Germanic tribes, the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes, who migrated to Britain from Germany and Denmark. So not English at all.

I have NO racial pride over being white British. To be honest, we are one of the groups that have wreaked the most havoc around the world, as colonialists and I am ashamed of that part of our history.

I can't say I'm specially proud of my 'ethnicity'. When the late John Arlott (famous cricket commentator) was asked, when completing a landing card before arriving in South Africa, in the 'race' section, he filled it in as 'human'. When I got feedback from Ancestry, I was amazed to find that I have nothing more than Northern European genes, apart from 4% Iberian which I suspect comes from Spanish crew being washed ashore in the West of Scotland when the Armada fell victim to Atlantic weather. Can I say I am proud to be Scottish when it's simply an accident of birth? I like being able to say, 'I'm Scottish', but that's not a matter of ethnicity. Ethnicity and nationality are two different things.

Ethnicity is totally factual. There were two little Chinese girls, one adopted in the USA and the other in Norway. They grew up worlds apart, completely different lives, with different nationalities. Are you saying their ethnicity is not Chinese! ?

I sometimes look at his facebook page and some of the letters he receives are disgusting. Jean is quite frankly disgusting as well.

Chestnut

When you get a passport it is based on your nationality, not your ethnicity. British is a nationality. English is an ethnicity, so you do not get an English passport. Irish is both a nationality and an ethnicity. Some people can't seem to understand the difference.

Oh don't get me started on the need for a Scottish passport. ? ? ?

I understand the difference, no need to be so dismissive. Its political, not ethnological.

Jean was not the slightest bit interested in terminology re race, ethnicity or nationality. She used the word ‘polluting’ which tells us everything we need to know about her - she’s a racist.

An afterthought - if you can be ‘proud’ of your ethnicity that means you could instead be ashamed of it - how exactly does that work?

annodomini You will probably never know for certain about your Iberian genes. Throughout the dark and middle ages, Europeans travelled around and Europe became a genetic melting pot. Sailors from the Iberian peninsula sailed to and colonised many areas. For example, it has been shown that some people in current Spain and Portugal have DNA in common with some Welsh. Interestingly, there is considerable diversity amongst peoples who have always considered themselves Celts.

BTW Many Irish have Viking DNA.

Chestnut

Ethnicity is totally factual. There were two little Chinese girls, one adopted in the USA and the other in Norway. They grew up worlds apart, completely different lives, with different nationalities. Are you saying their ethnicity is not Chinese! ?

Were they Han Chinese ? Or Uighur? Or Zhuang? Or Hui? Or Miao?

All different ethnic groups, all live in China. Along with 50 other groups.

Is it a short hop from 'English' to 'aryan'?

This instance on the purity of one's genes is quite a worry.

Chestnut

Ethnicity is totally factual. There were two little Chinese girls, one adopted in the USA and the other in Norway. They grew up worlds apart, completely different lives, with different nationalities. Are you saying their ethnicity is not Chinese! ?

Chestnut, there is no Chinese ethnicity. Some of the hundreds of ethnicities that exist in China are Han, Manchu, Zhuang, Yao, Bai.

I am afraid that the more you try to argue FOR specific ethnicities, the more you seem to be trying to ring fence something that doesn't actually exist.

Got there before me Alegrias!

Great minds GagaJo