Brown Sugar by The Rolling Stones

It's an area of music, popular culture that I'm largely unaware of. I was alienated 20 ish years ago, when a lovely young man then aged about 17 started playing those rap 'hit my bitch' type things on the car stereo.
I ignored Stormzy out of pure prejudice to what I saw as misogynistic racist *rap. But, then I heard him interviewed on radio 4 a couple of times and decided he's a potential hero of our times.

Rock & Roll didn't start in the fifties, it's much much earlier. It has it's origins in African/American culture. Those early songwriters knew how to use a euphemism, the expression rock and roll is, itself, a euphemism for sex.

You might know that the popular 45rpm record had a seven inch diameter. Prior to that there was a larger diameter of ten inches. Bull Moose Jackson has some serious fun with this. I think that the band Aerosmith may have reprised this song.

Got me the strangest woman
Believe me this chick's no cinch
But I really get her going
When I get out my big ten inch

Record of a band that plays the blues
The band that plays the blues
She just love my big ten inch
Record of her favourite blues

Last night I tried to tease her
I gave her a little pinch
But she said, "Now stop that jivin'
And get out that big ten inch"

Record of a band that plays the blues.................

I cover her with kisses
When we're in a lover's clinch
And when she gets all excited
She begs for my big ten inch

Record of a band that plays the blues.......

My gal don't go for smokin'
And liquor just makes her flinch
Seems she just goes for nothin'
Except my big ten inch

Record of a band that plays the blues.............

Gagajo

' I am not entering into debate with you about the Dave tracks I have already taught, and will continue to teach. My students are able to enter intelligent debate about them. A shame it isn’t possible here, but horses for courses.'
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Oh dear.

Posters dismissing my questions are par for the course by a handful and I thought my post was respectful but it is your perogative not to answer the questions. I do wonder what lies behind that course of action I must admit and have to make my own assumptions.

Thank you for responding however.

I am

Thank you.

I am confused by many scenarios I find as hypocrisy and the BBC was a point in question. Why does the BBC finds it felt it had to apologise for their reporter using the N word with I believe the support of the victim in a reported race hate crime yet it aired a brilliant series called ' I may destroy you' using music which was littered with the word.?

Music is a perfect avenue for today's youth to do as they preach to others but the music genre of RAP/DRILL/GRIME is all too often pepper sprayed with race hate/mysogyny /violence/incitement and using the' N word ' that they in turn say is unacceptable. So why do they do it? Why is it allowed? What is progressive by doing what they are opposed to?

That is my question.

This is the words of one of the songs the BBC allowed in the series I mentioned :-

You know what I am I can't put it on here because I would be barred probably from GN, my post would be deleted but look at the lyrics used in ' I may Destroy You' by BURNA BOY song title YE.

Interested in what you and others think who are prepared to wonder how music such as DRILL/RAP/GRIME is considered acceptable and why when mysoginy/incitement to violence/racial context is part of that culture/genre.

It was my granddaughter who a long while back starting asking questions re racial issues and I found myself thinking more and more how hypocrisy and those who shout loudest are often part of the problem.

These lyrics are dodgy from the Maggie May song by Rod Stewart :

It's late September and I think I really should be back at school.

The morning sun when it's in your face really shows your age.

I suppose I could collect my books and get back to school.
He talks of being kicked out of bed.
Sounds to me like a schoolkid with an older lover.

I still love some of the old Rod Stewart songs even if he is a pensioner now he has still got that old charisma.

It may well (is) be the case that Drill/Rap/Grime is often littered by the N word and it doe not appear in other genres now.

It has not always been the case though has it. It has been used by musicians, including white musicians. A clear example of this is the Patti Smith track "Rock and Roll N" on the album Easter. It was controversial then. Was it acceptable? Was it warranted? What did she mean by using it? Was it okay because of the context and meaning conveyed in the song? Is that the case in Drill/Rap/Grime now? Is it very acceptable? Is it less acceptable from Patti Smith because she is white?

Not very, grrh , - it should read ever.

3nany6 Rod Stewart has said the song was about his first sexual encounter aged 16 www.songfacts.com/facts/rod-stewart/maggie-may

The name Maggie May was the title of a folk song about a Liverpool prostitute. All I can rmember of the words is
"Oh Maggie, Maggie May
They have taken her away
She will never walk down Lime Street any more"

When I was in my mid-teens a friend and I used to play old 78s of Jelly Roll Morton - I've just looked up some of the lyrics and I'm quite shocked now but I don't remember being so then!
I preferred Bunk Johnson.

Trisher ; thank-you for that and I always wondered who indeed was his first encounter with as I knew the song was about him being deflowered. At least he was 16 so that's the main thing.

I did not know about the folk song about a Liverpool prostitute. (interesting)
I just really relate to that song because of my cousin I was brought up with called Margaret. Her parents never shortened her name to anything but I remember when that song came out many times when her and myself had a few glasses of bubbly I would put the Rod Stewart albums on and would always say your song is on in a minute Maggie.
We had such a laugh and now I can't believe I was perhaps saying she was a prostitute. The thing is I still love the song
she does as well and I still call her Maggie May sometimes.

CherryCezzy

It is obviously true the use of words such as n''' 'a/er', mysogyny/incitement /racial content have been used in time immemorial, as previously mentioned by a poster who refers to ' Of Mice and Men'.

However they are of an era and if we have moved on to thinking there are words and actions that have progressed us to think more about socially accepted perameters, which I believe we have, that seems to stop/goes unquestioned when it comes to the genre of music such as DRILL/GRIME/RAP. I see it as Hypocrisy.

I do not believe in rewriting history because it serves a purpose for progression and debate as to how to be more aware of issues, not only race related might I add I mention mysogyny/incitement /violence which is aimed at a core audience which for the most part are from the young generation. What influence is it having.

The fact it is in music and not in written form or spoken widely in public seems to allow it to go unchallenged. If it were spoken or written it would be dealt with and debated as is the case we see happen so many times. I do not think many parents, grand parents really listen to what the lyrics are and how violent some lyrics are. Some see the likes of Dave and Stormzy and it suits their politics to lionise them but they turn their head away from looking at an overall picture of their lyrics.

My biggest challenge remains there are apparently free passes for some and they are often the ones shouting the loudest. They see no irony in what they are doing.

Thank you engaging.

I get where you are coming from.

Patti Smith still sings or sometimes recites her song. She has still courted controversy. Venues have embraced her and venues have denied her. She has argued that context and meaning gives credence to use words; all or any.

I can't say for certain but I think that Drill/Rap/Grime musicians would argue the same and that they have legitimacy to use the N word. I do agree that offence is taken and an outcry ensues if others make the same choice.

Misogynistic lyrics appear in many songs past and present, eg. Ed Sheeran.

Sorry, that was addressed to POGS.

CherrySezzy

'She has argued that context and meaning gives credence to use words; all or any.'

' I can't say for certain but I think that Drill/Rap/Grime musicians would argue the same and that they have legitimacy to use the N word. I do agree that offence is taken and an outcry ensues if others make the same choice.'
-

This is where I find the hypocrisy.

There either is or is not a legitimacy for using the' N' word or there is not. It cannot be the case some are permitted to use it and others are not because one party decides. Who decides?

People are banning, no platforming, cancelling individuals for using the word whether it be for race baiting, or even sensible debate it matters not a jot, the context often does not come into the equation it is verboten.

DRILL/GRIME /RAP does indeed use the word for context and awareness of racial issues but it manifestly uses it for insult, baiting, incitement and in general calling their race 'N***A' is simply what they call each other. I say that bearing in mind not all DRILL/GRIME/RAP artistes are only from one racial colour.

It is a ruddy minefield to work around and if they are not offended in using the word how the hell are kids listening to their music ever going to respect the fact it is deemed as offensive, they must be confused and rightly so.

As for mysogyny I could put up some lyrics that would make more than a vicar blush compared to the songs remembered on this thread.

As I said it's a minefield, good to raise points for thought and debate though.

Iam64

It's an area of music, popular culture that I'm largely unaware of. I was alienated 20 ish years ago, when a lovely young man then aged about 17 started playing those rap 'hit my bitch' type things on the car stereo.
I ignored Stormzy out of pure prejudice to what I saw as misogynistic racist *rap. But, then I heard him interviewed on radio 4 a couple of times and decided he's a potential hero of our times.

I see Stormzy is gifting £500000 for education for minorities.

He already is funding some places in Cambridge for BAME folk.

His plan is to gift £10million I think for various stuff.

Philanthropy by modern culture. Putting his money where his mouth is?

I saw that too Whitewavemark. I knew about the funding for places at Cambridge too.
Philanthropy is a good thing, although some may debate that too. Others have done so very similarly, eg. Ed Sheeran, who "banded" together with a few other musicians to fund places for disadvantaged white males - who are underrepresented at many universities. This was not without its critics.

I agree with you on about mysogynist lyrics POGS, I can too - though I still think that the lyrics in Bowie's Cracked Actor would make some people's hair curl.

POGS, Nick Cave has criticised cancel culture, he has likened it to "bad religion" .

CherrySezzy

I have noted Nick Caves comment ob cancel culture and agree with him whole heartedly,.

I like his point too:-

Political correctness has grown to become the unhappiest religion in the world. Its once honourable attempt to reimagine our society in a more equitable way now embodies all the worst aspects that religion has to offer (and none of the beauty) — moral certainty and self-righteousness shorn even of the capacity for redemption. It has become quite literally, bad religion run amuck.'

"refusal to engage with uncomfortable ideas"
-----
It was bad enough when it was ' No Platforming ' but it has shifted fast forward to the ultimate ' Cancelling ' individuals altogether.

CherryCezzy

POGS, Nick Cave has criticised cancel culture, he has likened it to "bad religion" .

Trump is certainly a fan of cancel culture, although he might not identify with the concept, but he has often been an advocate of cancellation, sacking and boycotting to everyone who has criticised him or said something with which he disagrees.

CherryCezzy

'Ed Sheeran, who "banded" together with a few other musicians to fund places for disadvantaged white males - who are underrepresented at many universities. This was not without its critics.'
--

I know Ed Sheeran started ESSMF, Ed Sheeran Suffolk Music Foundation but I am not aware of what you state above and I am interested to know more about it but I can' t find anything. Do you have a link or such like.

Thank you.