Is morality something you expect of others?

And I feel strongly that I want my children to be safe. It is the teachers in my childs school who I trust to do this in the safest way possible not people on the internet whose knowledge of issues such as safeguarding appears minimal to say the least.

Elegran in regard to your post @21:29 today, to state that I am "obsessed" with the teachers and the teaching profession is simply not a fact.

As I have stated previously in this thread, I work full time in our own company, and in that I sometimes post prior to going into the office and on return in the evenings. Occasionally I may post while having a break if I am working from home but that is very infrequent.

If I have an obsession it is in regard to people being safe in their places of work and that obsession I have retained for the last thirty-five years.

The Covid crisis has made me even more determined that in working alongside those that have attended their places of work throughout this unprecedented time shall have the finest protection that can be brought to then while they attend their workplace duties.

And that is an obsession I am very proud to possess.

Nobody has disputed that schools should do all they realistically can to have pupils back in September. However, that requires realism, not rhetoric about "morality" and grandstanding.

Earlier in this thread I said I thought there'd be a U turn by Thursday. I think the Thursday deadline might be missed, but the signs of a U turn are already there. It's no coincidence that the Test and Trace system has been completely reorganised, which is one precondition everybody has said is absolutely necessary. Chris Whitty has been ordered to re-examine all the advice and conditions for opening to all - again no coincidence. Headteachers are also being urged to come up with their own Plan Bs - an admission that Plan A is not expected to be successful. They are also being urged to upskill staff's technology skills. Oakland Academy, which provides online learning, is being heavily promoted.

The unions have been heavily involved in finding solutions.

I welcome all the above because they're pragmatic steps towards providing the best that is possible in the circumstances. However, it has to be recognised that providing a "back to normal" service, which is what people are being promised, just cannot happen.

If I have an obsession it is in regard to people being safe in their places of work and that obsession I have retained for the last thirty-five years.

To be quite frank, you really don't seem very obsessed about safety in schools.

There are 8,820,000 pupils in English schools - nearly 16% of a population of 55,980,000. Until now, they have not been forced into environments which are considered unsafe for the general public. The potential damage which outbreaks amongst such a large proportion of the population could cause, doesn't bear thinking about. It won't just be the pupils and staff who will be affected, but the families and communities in which they live - and, of course, the economy. The government has a moral duty to ensure that doesn't happen.

Think about the situation in the Leicester sweat shops and multiply that millions of times because that's the reality. The virus doesn't care whether it's infecting adult textile workers or teenage pupils.

growstuff, in regard to your post @22:03 today, should you ever attend a first stage industrial safety course the first thing the tutor will instruct you in is that everything we do in life carries some degree of risk.

Should you ever then get as far as learning advanced risk assessment you will discover that those assessments not only evaluate the degree of risk in any operation in their first stage analysis but also instruct how those risks can be reduced to acceptable levels in there second and third stages.

If the working activity cannot be brought within those acceptable numeric parameters then the work activity cannot commence or if already in operation has to be suspended.

In the above thought has to be introduced into the safety analysis so as the working procedure can begin or be restarted for to tell an employer that their business cannot operate in any way due to safety concerns is simply not acceptable in almost all cases, solutions have to be found. The foregoing then takes careful thought ingenuity and originality to bring the risks to within acceptable parameters.

However, I find that within education voicing the hazards there are to be found in fully reopening the schools for all children in September is abundant. That stated bringing forward how those hazards can be solved or the risks reduced to within acceptable parameters as laid out above is simply non-existent within the education establishment.

That is why many view it as an establishment, set in its ways, unable to adapt to the challenges that this crisis has thrust upon it.

I have never met anyone who views it in that way. Most of us have no idea what you are talking about when you use the term.

I don't believe that anyone, teachers included, expects or demands to be 100% safe in any job. The best anyone can hope for is that everything is done to minimise dangers.

I have been watching the most spectacular lightning strikes I have ever seen, occurring about every 2 seconds for the past hour, with continuous rumbling thunder. I hope that we are safe from those, and that none of them cause damage to any houses. It has been more interesting than reading arguments between irresistable forces and immovable objects, so I shall return to the window. It is getting a bit quieter, so I might risk going to bed soon.

I do have some awareness of writing plain English. Does that count?

Elegran I wish we had the thunderstorms here. I'm beginning to find the heat and humidity very wearing.

Me too.

I haven't seen a spectacular thunderstorm for a long time.

I wish my wildlife camera were still in place outside to video it. Tomorrow's newspaper photos will be interesting.

I think I may just have been categorised as part of an "educational establishment" I never even knew existed and which I certainly never (in my opinion) joined and which certainly most of my colleagues would never have considered me. One of them actually nicknaming me Rosa Luxembourg.
Grandad1943 we did risk assessments on every activity the children were involved in (including a short walk to the local library) no one ever gave me a days training in it. We did what teachers always do-we managed.

We've had thunderstorms rolling around on and off for the last few nights. But sadly very little rain and it's just as humid. Just checked the forecast - apparently 100% chance of rain tonight. Here's hoping!

Interesting point Grandad - I wonder who is going to fund for teachers and school leaders to have all this advanced training by September.

Teachers want the pupils to also have "the finest protection" - let us hope they will have access to the means to achieve this.

In the meantime they are all doing their very best in a muddled situation. Thank goodness for all these wonderful teachers who are prepared to work their tripe out to try and do the best for the nation's young.

If most people did not expect others to obey the same or much the same moral system society would break down. That is what has happened in Lebanon.

I am in the office at the moment but looked into the forum while having a break and could not avoid noticing this from trisher.

trisher Quote [Grandad1943 we did risk assessments on every activity the children were involved in (including a short walk to the local library) no one ever gave me a days training in it. We did what teachers always do-we managed.] End Quote.

Well, legislation states an employer must appoint a competent person(s) who can undertake the health and safety duties and requirements of their organisation. In that, the competent person(s) appointed must possess the necessary skills, knowledge, training and experience to manage the health and safety of the workplace.

With risk assessment, the qualifications required are dependent on the size of the workplace and the general level of risk associated with the tasks carried out. However, as we are always being informed on this forum how challenging the safeguarding of school pupils is, we can safely place the education profession in a high category of workplace safety risk.

Therefore the risk assessments that trisher has so proudly carried out are not worth the paper they are written on under the current legislation of the United Kindom.

I am also very surprised that a profession that is always advising that the children's safeguarding is paramount to the education sector allowed an unqualified and untrained person to undertake such risk analysis if safety is everything in that sector?

A link to risk management in any workplace/organisation can be found here:-
www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/risk/index.htm

The ultimate employers of all those teachers you don't think capable of carrying out a risk assessment are the government.

Grandad1943
Therefore the risk assessments that trisher has so proudly carried out are not worth the paper they are written on under the current legislation of the United Kindom
I knew that but no one could tell the powers that be. The risk assessment on my school trip took no account of the child who managed to get her arm stuck between two seats on a ferry. (Perhaps I should have warned them not to pick up anything which fell on the floor)
I am also very surprised that a profession that is always advising that the children's safeguarding is paramount to the education sector allowed an unqualified and untrained person to undertake such risk analysis if safety is everything in that sector?
The problem is Grandad1943 that teachers will move about and if they arrive in a school that has done the risk assessment already they won't get any until it comes around again. By which time they may have moved again.
Incidently I also ran an event for a national charity when I first retired I think my Risk Assessment training for that was a couple of hours. So it's not just teaching.

In our school everyone has to have basic training in assessing risk, including the governors. There is a very great deal of risk assessing going on when dealing with unpredictable primary age children!

There is a very great deal of risk assessing going on when dealing with unpredictable primary age children!

Yes Lucky I can imagine its much like some of the risk assessments I do on a new machine or process when the operators haven't got the common sense they were born with . In fact I would expect children of primary school age might have more sense !

They do gillybob but they are also much more unpredictable-hence the ferry incident. The children were actually sitting in seats on the ferry because the Head had become concerned about a recent boat accident and decided (after looking at the risk assessment) that if the trip was to go ahead children should not be allowed to stand on the deck as they had other years, but must sit in the seats. The stuck arm was the result.

Oh gilly - that sounds like hard work - and no doubt you would be the ones to carry the can if something goes wrong.

Well it certainly sounds a lot like my experiences with (so called) responsible adults trisher. We always have to assume that an idiot someone will try to put their hand into a running motor or blade and will try to outwit the light guards with a long broom handle. Honestly some of things people do.

Pretty much Lucky although we work with the customer and they pretty much tell us the level of idiot we are dealing with. Then I can really go to town pointing out the bleedin' obvious risk that even a primary school aged child wouldn't try.

gillybob I just hope you are fully qualified to do the risk assessment on them. I wasn't apparently, although I think if you can read and have a basic knowledge of probability you are over half way there. To think of all the things I did before there was any such thing as risk assessing.