Day to day experience; racisim as a a part of life for some!

Madgran77
So they are aware of what they view as a valid assumption but are unaware of the inherent racism in that¬!
I think we are getting into quite deep philosophical waters here - on the nature of what is conscious, unconscious, aware or unaware! For me, if a person is aware of something, then it follows that it is a conscious thought?
I can see your point, but I think we may have to agree to disagree on what is conscious or unconscious racism. It is very subtle, and people can be completely unaware that they have racist attitudes.
An example - my mother, who is white, attended a function organized by the Caribbean Cricket Club, and she actually said to me, 'I was the only white person in the room, I felt awful.' She seemed to be completely unaware of the irony. (Maybe you can see why I have problems!)

Fenella I’m trying not to laugh, but the irony of that says it all!

Fenella that is SO ironic!

I do agree with you that people can be unaware that they have racist attitudes which I suppose is what I mean by unconscious racism. ie they are aware/conscious of what they think but dont see it as racism. I'm not sure we do disagree actually, I think I'm probably not explaining myself very well. Sorry!

Madgran77 I think we are probably agreeing! Your last post made your meaning much clearer to me - I was grappling with what you meant at first. Thank you for explaining.

Madgran people do make assumptions on all sorts of things and it is based on ignorance. I remember when I was growing up we lived in a council house and the la ti da rich conservatives in the big houses told my mother they wouldn’t send a car to take her to the polling station on Election Day as we were all labour supporters. The so called upper classes then were very condescending to the poorer classes. We seem to have lost a lot of that now thank goodness.

Madgran77 I think we are probably agreeing!

25Avalon, i'm not so sure that we have lost those attitudes.
i think it is more self-interest. the blatant expression of such views is less widely tolerated nowadays, but it's there, lurking.
look at all the chav shaming that goes on, poverty-porn tv etc.

Thank you Fenella12 for your first hand experience of racism in the UK and thank you GagaJo for your account of how racism has affected your family.

It is really important that we all understand how racism works even if it has never directly affected us or our families.

I have posted previously about my Asian daughter-in -law and my mixed race beautiful grandchildren who live in Australia. My granddaughter in particular has suffered horrendous racial abuse.
She recently told me that she had been dropped from the netball team because of the colour of her skin. I don't know if this is likely to be the case but my concern is that my granddaughter feels that it is.
I think that's the sort of thing that makes me feel I must make extra effort with the black child as in my earlier post, so that they don't feel that there is racism. I want both children to feel important.
I take your point though Fenella that both children may notice this and it could easily be construed as pity. Not my intention, but now that you have pointed it out I will, as you rightly point out, show respect to both. Thanks for that.

I'm not sure if stereotyping is the same as being racist. Sometimes it's just plain stupidity.

A young black woman was temping in the office I worked in and during a conversation we were having she mentioned she was in a choir. I responded "A gospel choir? As soon as I said it, I realised I had assumed that because she was black she would be in a gospel choir. It wasn't meant maliciously but it made me realise how easy it is to make assumptions about people and thus stereotype them. I used to get so annoyed with my Mum when she spoke of black people being "naturally full of rhythm" and yet here was I saying something very similar.

I have also had assumptions made about me and my children. When I lived in Sussex a woman admired my six month old baby and asked "Is he adopted?" (my husband is Asian). When I replied no, my husband is Asian she was terribly embarrassed and apologetic I feel quite sure it was not meant maliciously and I didn't take offence but it does show how easily people make assumptions.

I don't think making stereotypical assumptions is necessarily indicative of racism but it most certainly can be - especially when those assumptions have negative connotations.

I was interested when another poster said she had never experienced racism. Her final comment was "and I play my part, by trying to conform." I wasn't sure quite how to take that. What exactly does "conforming" mean - laughing at jokes you don't find funny, changing your name to something "English" because people can't be bothered to get their head around your own name?

I was interested when another poster said she had never experienced racism. Her final comment was "and I play my part, by trying to conform." I wasn't sure quite how to take that. What exactly does "conforming" mean - laughing at jokes you don't find funny, changing your name to something "English" because people can't be bothered to get their head around your own name?

I have been pondering on that too Eleothan. And also , how does "conforming" look when you are a second, third or fourth generation person of colour living in Britain? Conforming to what?

That's really interesting mad gran. What are people expected to conform to. You see it expressed quite frequently 'well they dont integrate properly' but what in earth dies that mean. My life is completely different to my neighbours for example but no one accuses me of not conforming, because I am white.

I am white and one of my long-term friends is black. She now has a racist neighbour who is making her life difficult. I am deeply upset for her. We all suffer where racism exists; a racist society is not a healthy one.

I think that 'conforming' may mean wearing western clothes if the person is Asian? Not sure though.
It's also possible that the person saying they don't experience racism is saying it to convince herself (assuming it's a woman). To admit to being subject to racism also means admitting to yourself that some people think you are inferior in some way, and that can be very hard to deal with, so is a possible reason for someone to be in denial that it happens.

That's just a theory of course. I don't know the person so hard to comment. I think the darker the skin, the more likely that racist incidents happen, so if she is of ethnic origin but light skinned, she may not encounter very much of it.

www.theguardian.com/law/video/2020/aug/09/labour-mp-dawn-butler-films-herself-being-stopped-by-police-in-london-video

The reason given for police stopping the car was that it was identified as being registered in Yorkshire (police later said that identification was a genuine error).

What I can't work out is why the car being registered in a different area is a reason for the police to stop it! Any ideas?

What I can't work out is why the car being registered in a different area is a reason for the police to stop it! Any ideas?

My last car, which I had for at least 5 years, had a NI number plate. The police never stopped me in England, or Scotland, because of my number plate (or for anything else, either..)

Nope, I can't see why it's a 'reason' for stopping anyone.

Stop and question: police powers
A police officer might stop you and ask:

what your name is
what you’re doing in the area
where you’re going
You don’t have to stop or answer any questions. If you don’t and there’s no other reason to suspect you, then this alone can’t be used as a reason to search or arrest you.

Stop and search: police powers
A police officer has powers to stop and search you if they have ‘reasonable grounds’ to suspect you’re carrying:

illegal drugs
a weapon
stolen property
something which could be used to commit a crime, such as a crowbar
You can only be stopped and searched without reasonable grounds if it has been approved by a senior police officer. This can happen if it is suspected that:

serious violence could take place
you’re carrying a weapon or have used one
you’re in a specific location or area
Before you’re searched
Before you’re searched the police officer must tell you:

their name and police station
what they expect to find, for example drugs
the reason they want to search you, for example if it looks like you’re hiding something
why they are legally allowed to search you
that you can have a record of the search and if this isn’t possible at the time, how you can get a copy

Thaqnks Furret Which one applies to "the car was registered in a different area to the one it was in?"

I have never been stopped when driving all over the country in a car registered in London either Maizie D! (Not in a BMW though; a rather natty brand new Mini; not quite so new now!!)

Furret You may be quoting the rules but it's unlikely that the police go through that list whenever they stop anyone. Dawn Butler's friend's car was pulled over because it was (mistakenly) thought to be registered in the north. Apparently no other reason was given so it's obvious that they were picked upon because they were black and in a relatively expensive car.

An article in the Guardian today traffic stops are not routinely recorded. Also police have the power to stop drivers without any reasonable suspicion that they have done something wrong under s. 163 of the RTA 1988.

One of the reasons for the riots in Brixton in the 80s were the use of stop and search.

Section 163 of the RTA 1988 explained

From the College of Policing

Vehicle stops under section 163 of the Road Traffic Act 1988
Section 163 RTA states that a person driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road must stop if required to do so by a constable. Not to do so is an offence. There are no procedural requirements for the stop and there is no associated search power.

The officer can ask the driver for their licence and ask the driver and passengers questions, in effect a stop and account. The officer may only search the vehicle or persons in it if one of the stop and search powers applies in the circumstances, eg, if there is intelligence giving reasonable grounds to suspect that drugs or a weapon are being carried in the vehicle. If no power applies, no search can take place.

Although the officer does not need to have any particular reason to stop the vehicle and there is no obligation to explain why the vehicle has been stopped, explaining why the officer decided to stop the vehicle – in line with a procedural justice approach – is likely to improve the quality of the encounter and how it is perceived by the person stopped.

In addition, officers are subject to the public sector equality duty under section 149 of the Equality Act 2010. In the exercise of their functions, the officer must have due regard to the need to eliminate unlawful discrimination, harassment and victimisation. They are therefore not permitted to stop a vehicle solely based on relevant protected characteristics, including the race, age or religious dress of the driver or passengers.

www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/stop-and-search/legal/legal-basis/

It looks so open ended it's quite worrying. I don't blame BAME people for being suspicious of police motives...

They are therefore not permitted to stop a vehicle solely based on relevant protected characteristics, including the race, age or religious dress of the driver or passengers.

How could you possibly prove that you'd been stopped unlawfully under this provision?

Interesting MaizieD thanks for posting. So they dont actually have to have a reason for stopping ...so presumably "registered in a different area" is as good as any ...or maybe
" because it's got 4 wheels on it"!!!!!! Hmmm!

I think we need our police and our police keep many of us safe in many instances but I do think this type of policy needs to be transparent, clearly explained and clearly justified. So far, in this particular incident, that just hasn't happened which is a shame

This is a 30+ year old Act. Presumably the police may have been using these powers disproportionately all this time but few people may have registered that this is happening to the BAME community (or we may have been ignoring them?)

I think many were aware, the statistics have been out there for a very long time.

I do think that recent events have brought about a sense of "something has got to change" in a wider range of the community and also that more people are listening! Plus I think there is a sense of it being worth raising the issue, worth making a fuss etc etc because more are listening.

Furret Many years ago I did a "Colour Me Beautiful" session which was very interesting. One thing I learned was that if complimented on one's clothes then the colour was wrong. The idea was that people would you say - you look nice today, rather than that's a nice dress you're wearing.