Does feminism mean the same now as it did in the 60's and 70's?

Was that to do with women moving from sahm /part time to full time work . To be honest the members of PTA and governing bodies that I know are predominately women in their thirties.

Hithere

Feminism is about supporting each other as women.

Saying that sahms (stay at home moms) are foolish is not being supportive and judging all marriages by the same slate.

I think it is partly that Hithere. However, I am sure that there are some women whose choices you do not approve of. Sex workers maybe. Or possibly unemployed single mothers. I feel that way about women who allow themselves to be dependent on men.

It isn't a judgement on marriage (I will address THAT one later). It is an acknowledgement that women are adult human beings responsible for themselves. Most westerners marry for love. Love doesn't prevent you from needing to think about the future. No one is doubting the love that people feel when they marry. But almost 50% of marriages end in divorce. THAT is a cold hard fact.

If you marry a man with the intention of not working, you are in effect entering into a patriarchal arrangement, wherein you sell yourself to him in exchange for financial gain.

I have two friends who have in particular been devastated by falling into that trap. One is now stuck in a tiny apartment, having to work at a job that is hugely beneath her abilities, but having no training to do anything else. A virgin at marriage, to a man of high standing in her church. The other, married again for love. Stayed at home to raise the children. Divorce once the children were in their late teens. She is in an even more menial job. We were at school together. She's a lovely, kind, honest, genuine person. Life wrecked through financially depending on someone else.

Feminism is about equality. There is no equality in giving away your security to someone else.

growstuff

I don't agree that feminism is about supporting other women just because they are women. To me, it's about being a woman not being a bar to achieving the same as men.

If women are in the fortunate position of being able to choose not to work outside the home, that's up to them. However, I can't honestly say I support them (nor that I don't support them). However, they can't expect the same as women who have worked, often juggling being a parent with a job, nor are they in any position to judge women who have gone down a different route, often not through choice.

Often it’s not about being fortunate enough to be able to quit work, but that it would cost more to go back to work.

No woman should judge another woman’s choices. We don’t all have the same aspirations

Would you say the same thing about a man Summerlove?

I truly believe that if women want the same benefits as men (pensions, etc) they need to earn them. I see absolutely no reason why women should have lower aspirations than men.

But it's not the same for men on the whole. Studies show that it is women who take on the majority of childcare and housework. So women are working more it's just the work they do us not seen as work. What you are asking many women to do is not to do the same work as men but more.

I can’t speak for growstuff, but IMO it’s not about asking women to do anything - it’s about expecting fairness and equality.

Why should some people get pensions that others have paid for? If someone is incapable of working, then fair enough, but opting out whilst expecting others to subsidise you is anything but fair.

If women choose to do all the housework that is up to them, but they don’t have to - it is a throwback to the days when men earned and women were ‘housewives’ that can lead to these expectations. Break that link and there is no reason why chores can’t be shared.

Again you are placing the blame in women. Men need to step up and take an equal share.

So many things making me smile.
Why are jobs beneath people ?
I don’t consider myself a stay at home mum nor a career person because I chose to have children with my husband we worked together he earned more so I worked shifts around him.
The choice to me is family and children or working life. Male or female,, if family so many sacrifices need too be expected.
In this day and age it’s not about feminism that should be a given.

To me being a feminist meant having an equal ground with men, not belittling them or scoring cheap points, which is how I think it's become. I believe in ability not quotas to make a point, that is lowering the aims of being a feminist, so it has changed over the years, not for the better.

So the feminist campaigns that I am currently aware of are - I cant consent to this, which is campaigning on the issue of women being killed and men using the defense of rough sex. The campaign to review the low level of rape convictions as discussed on another thread. I am aware of campaigns to have education in schools about the negative impact of porn. I am aware of the campaign of counting dead women which honours the women who have been killed by men and highlights the issue of Male violence. Those are some of the current campaigns I am aware of, which ones were you thinking of that belittle men?

Galaxy

Again you are placing the blame in women. Men need to step up and take an equal share.

I’m not blaming women for anything. I am saying that equality means equal contribution - in the workplace and in the home.

If men are living with a working woman, it’s not unreasonable to expect them to do their share. Few younger people would even question this.

I am not saying that anything ‘should’ or shouldn’t’ happen incidentally- just that equality requires equal participation. The fact that someone is female should not, IMO mean that she should expect others to pay for her to stay at home. If she wants to do so, it’s up to her, but her there is no reason why her husband can’t be expected to provide for her old age just as he did when she was capable of providing for herself.

Galaxy

Again you are placing the blame in women. Men need to step up and take an equal share.

Men do take an equal share. My wife remained at home when our three children were young looking after them and our home.

I during those years would commence working at 1:00 or 2:00am in the morning, work a ten or twelve hour shift often carrying that out six days per week in a very heavy manual truck driving job.

Was that not "doing my share".

Sparkling

To me being a feminist meant having an equal ground with men, not belittling them or scoring cheap points, which is how I think it's become. I believe in ability not quotas to make a point, that is lowering the aims of being a feminist, so it has changed over the years, not for the better.

There have to be quotas though, because otherwise what you get is the continuation of white men at the top. I was told not to expect promotion at Lloyds bank because it was reserved for men with families. That wasn't by ability.

The patriarchal system was designed to allow white men all the power. It was always about maintaining that system. To disrupt it, it is necessary to force discriminatory organisations to hire women and other ethnic groups.

But is it an equal contribution though. So working women on the whole do much more housework and childcare than men. Those statistics have shifted but not much.
I have said that I think SAHM are taking a risk but I think there are also questions about the value we place on unpaid work. If we are talking about equality then working women should be paid more than men as generally they are doing more of the unpaid labour, but nobody argues for that

It's not an individual discussion grandad it's an analysis of society and its structures.

Galaxy

But is it an equal contribution though. So working women on the whole do much more housework and childcare than men. Those statistics have shifted but not much.
I have said that I think SAHM are taking a risk but I think there are also questions about the value we place on unpaid work. If we are talking about equality then working women should be paid more than men as generally they are doing more of the unpaid labour, but nobody argues for that

If it is jointly decided that one partner should remain at home to fully look after the children while the other works outside that home to maintain the income that is required that is a close equal sharing partnership in the eyes of very many.

Commencing work in the very early hours of the morning I was always home when our children arrived back from school. I would then have a number of hours with them prior to bedtime for our children and also me.

In the above, I would manage on five hours of sleep per night which in later years affected my health.

The above we considered as me and my wife BOTH sharing in running the home and bringing up our children.

To state any other is total cr*p

Galaxy

But is it an equal contribution though. So working women on the whole do much more housework and childcare than men. Those statistics have shifted but not much.
I have said that I think SAHM are taking a risk but I think there are also questions about the value we place on unpaid work. If we are talking about equality then working women should be paid more than men as generally they are doing more of the unpaid labour, but nobody argues for that

If women choose to take on more chores than men that is up to them. I don’t do more than my husband and never did. Nor do most of my friends.

Why would we? We all contributed to our households equally, so expected equal participation. Adults can clean up after themselves regardless of gender.

Sometimes it was different but it was equal, which is what those of us arguing for equality are saying. If you want equality you have to contribute equally.

It goes beyond individual households, as you say, Galaxy. It’s about who pays for healthcare, roads, education, pensions - all the things that everyone benefits from and are paid for out of tax and NI. How can those who contribute nothing towards any of these things think that cleaning their own house is equivalent?

I agree with the fact that adults can clean up after themselves but in practice that is not what happens, studies still show that it falls to women. Now that may be changing but it is very slow. Again it's not an individual discussion its societal. Are you saying all those women make that choice in isolation. It's interesting if that's the case. I think looking after children in the early years is a very important job. I think people choose to do that in very different ways and I think all those ways should be supported.

Grandad as I have said I am discussing the issue on a societal level not what time you as an individual get up.

Galaxy

It's not an individual discussion grandad it's an analysis of society and its structures.

It is about what was the real situation in many homes and families in times past.

The situation is somewhat different now, but my company like many find that women often do not take up all the training and promotions offered to them especially if that promotion involves travel and time away from home.

There is nothing employers can do in such situations.

I wonder what a feminist analysis would look like in considering why Grandad's company can "do nothing" about why those pesky women don't take up the opportunities for promotion, travel and time away from home.

I love you a little bit Iam64

Yes feminism has changed. In the 60s and 70s the message was that women could have it all. The message now is that women have the freedom to decide what they want to do with their lives, provided they accept that it is still within a world ultimately controlled and designed by men.
I recommend Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez

I was raised by older parents. My mum used to say things like "that girl is on the shelf, she's missed the boat". This was about someone who hadn't found a man yet. She was desperate to see me married and having children. I married at 20 and luckily it worked out. I worked in a Surveyors office and remember a girl being sent home to change as she'd come to work in a trouser suit. All of us were subjected to leering from the men as we wore mini skirts.

When I got my first promotion into a managerial role, I was offered it at a pay cut (allegedly shorter hours). I asked the Union for help and was told that I was taking a man's job and I should be thankful for it at any salary... Over the 33 years in my career in that company, not to mention my final salary pension, that attitude has cost me hundreds of thousands of pounds.