So he’s done it?

Oh how many times then did Mrs May say “no deal is better than a bad deal”?

I didn’t dream it.

I don't recall there ever being a choice of leaving with or without a deal . Just remaining or leaving. The so called "deal" we have been offered is rubbish anyway and the EU are not going to back down. why would they?

How many debating days will parliament actually lose? 4? 5?

We have had over 3 years of this crap !

And I voted REMAIN.

Oh Britain, my language and cultural home and home of all my forefathers and foremothers, my heart just breaks with what has happened to the UK.

A Dogs Brexit. How has it come to this?

Papa24...the UK does not have the oldest democracy in the world; let's get the facts correct.

The ancient Greeks started a formal voting scheme to elect representatives and the oldest parliament is in Iceland. They have chosen not to be in the EU and Greenland actually left the EU in 1985 ( 53% voting majority) in a disagreement over fishing rights. Despite their size, those two countries are doing well without the EU telling them how to conduct their affairs.

Democracy went out of the window when certain MP's decided to ignore a majority referendum.

Never mind "Reread the government leaflet explaining the decision as a once in a lifetime decision". We are not governed by government leaflets , we are governed by the Acts of Parliament enacted by the government that we elected to do this for us, which is made up of NMPs from all the different parties in the country.

Read instead the actual Act of Parliament, which officially defines the mechanism for holding the referendum, in detail. It does not mention that once the results of the voting have been counted, if there are a majority of yes votes, it will become law, it just sets up that the question will be asked.

If a law were to be passed that defined a dog, and then a leaflet circulated that said that every dog must be painted blue, would you take that to mean that by law every dog must be painted blue? A ridiculous example, but it would be a parallel case. What a leaflet says is information, not law. and information can be mistaken.

^ It was said 3 years ago there was a possibility of leaving without a deal^

Leaving without a deal was never mentioned by the Leave campaigns, except to call it Project Fear and to say that it just wouldn't happen. In the government leaflet it was mentioned as a warning, not a desirable outcome. Do stop trying to twist this into approval for no deal.

It’s a real pleasure to see more Leavers posting last night and this morning!

I knew you lot were out there somewhere ....
?

Interesting reading. You are mostly condemning Boris Johnson, but democracy was killed off by those MPs who gained seats by agreeing to uphold the result of the Referendum and then have done their best to prevent it happening. One of the worst beging our 'beloved' Theresa.

..and can I also ask you what your solution to the Irish problem is? [no brexiter seems to be able to tell me....]

As the 'young'voted overwhelmingly to Remain I think your reasoning is flawed, Ug. And polling is consistently showing a majority for Remain.

The only way to really find out the truth is to have another vote.

I agree GG13 that Johnson might be bluffing and plans to tweak the Withdrawal Agreement and get it passed in Parliament, with MPs agreeing in order to avoid No Deal.
This would be better for the country (and I’m an ardent Remainer) and also better for the reputation of Mr Boris Johnson.
But the chances of the EU agreeing to remove (or alter) the Backstop in the next few weeks after three years of negotiations don’t seem great.

I thought there was a vote about joining the EU ?

I really can't understand why people are kicking up such a stink. It was said 3 years ago there was a possibility of leaving without a deal and people have had plenty of time to sort themselves out instead they just start moaning because they can now see it may well be a reality. We didn't ask to become part of the EU so we shouldn't have all this trouble leaving. Like I said, people have had time to get used to the idea so stop throwing your toys out of the pram and get on with it. Well done Boris, I'm right behind you and I hope you keep your word and get us out on the promised date. Remoaners - get a life. You had your say, now we are doing what we voted for.

Interesting, listening to Gina Miller patiently explaining to a seemingly confuse Adam Bolton what her court case is hoping to clarify. He seems to be getting very upset when she says "that is true". Or "we are not disagreeing with any of that." It keeps coming back to the type of democracy we have, i.e., representative parliamentary democracy. Bolton keeps trotting out "the will of the people" as if such a thing existed in law.

What the court is being asked to look at is the effect an abnormal prorogation of five weeks will have. Their case is that it limits parliament's ability to pass legislation against no deal which they have expressed their wish to do. It is not about leaving, it is about no deal. The legal case would seem to rest on whether Johnson has used this power has shortened the time parliament has to do what it wants -whatever that may be.

Interestingly she said they had numerous letters from the government, the last at 5 o'clock on Monday, saying that under no circumstances would government prorogue and that the didn't have to go to court because it was all academic. That must have known on Monday at 5 p.m. what they intended to do.

Does anyone know if MPs could refuse to be prorogued? If it is the monarch who is requesting surely democracy should insist that it is the elected representatives of the people who have the final say. As Johnson has a majority of 1 and MPs of all parties have expressed disgust shouldn't. they be able to stop this?

Well perhaps do the same split for the young ‘uns eligible to vote now MaizieD and it’s likely to stay as we are, even 3y on!

I'm not sure the Queen had a choice. She can't refuse to sign legistration passed by parliament, even although her signing is known as the Royal Assent, so why should she have the right to refuse to prorouge parliament?

My first startled feeling was the Boris knows he will never get a deal accepted in Parliament and he is passing the buck, hoping to force a General Election before October 31st, so someone else goes down in history as the prime minister who left the EU without a deal.

Off the top of my head I think both Elizabeth Tudor and Charles 1 prorouged parliament for longer than Boris is doing.

Can't you just hang in there until April 1st? It would surely be a more suitable date for leaving then All Hallows' E'en!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Applegran as regards the petition, Imthought you might be interested in this screenshot

Yes, this sort of thing popped up in connection with the last enormous petition. As I recall, the government IT technicians were wise to it and removed suspect signings. Setting up multiple emails might be easy but changing IP addresses is less so and not so likely to be gamed. I believe that previously they only allowed a very restricted number from a single IP address.

Of course, the screenshot could well be of someone trying to discredit the petition by making it appear that people are gaming it. You just can't tell with all the sophisticated cyber warfare that goes on these days.

No doubt the Leavers will trot this out at every opportunity, though...

The system is there and been used before. It's Brexit that is the problem. Or, that a majority voted to leave the EU with no conditions on the voting paper.

mostlyharmless, I posted up thread as did several others, that Boris Johnson could be an extremely effective strategist.

By showing he is intent on leaving he may be able to get a few alterations/tweaks to the WDA from the EU, (who do not want no deal).

If these were acceptable to the majority of MPs the WDA could be voted on for a fourth time and go through.

Its happened and its very sad, the oldest democracy in the world, shattered. I shudder to think what the future holds with this diktat in charge, BoJo the scary clown. No more to say.

For those of you defending the prorogation of Parliament, here are some opinions of current cabinet members; opinions given before the coup was implemented, of course.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1166821141207494656.html

For those of you who don't follow links I'll copy and paste a few

Plus, of course, the outrageous lie promulgated by No 10.

start

4) Sajid Javid, chancellor: You don't deliver on democracy by trashing democracy . . . we are not selecting a dictator of our country"
5) @MattHancock again: Proroguing Parliament undermines parliamentary democracy. I rule it out and call on all candidates to do the same
6) @AmberRuddHR again: 'I think it’s outrageous to consider proroguing Parliament. We are not Stuart kings.”
8) @michaelgove, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster: 'I think it will be wrong for many reasons. I think it would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy

15) Downing Street spokesman to BBC: ‘The claim that the government is considering proroguing parliament in September in order to stop MPs debating Brexit is entirely false.’

End

But this isn’t about Leave or Remain. It’s about avoiding a NO DEAL Brexit. The hardest and most damaging form of Brexit.

Some will say that they voted for No Deal, but it wasn’t even mentioned before the Referendum.

The Government’s leaflets sent to every home before the Referendum mentions “deal” three times, specifically mentioning a Norway deal and a Canada Deal. (See link below)

Presumably Gransnetters on this forum are interested in politics and would have read this leaflet carefully. So they really cannot say they voted for No Deal.

Parliament has already voted against No Deal.
The Government is deliberately trying to shut down debate in Parliament over the next vital weeks that might succeed in preventing No Deal.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf