Tory Islamophobia

Yes grandad it is so easy to tip over into racism without realising it. It isn’t about political correctness either.

Jewish folk rightly point out any potentially offensive language immediately, they have learned that over the centuries of abuse you can’t accept or give an inch as there lies dog whistle racism, the kind we see either occasionally on this forum, and certainly see from out politicians and media.

lemongrove Quote [ You can’t (shouldn’t) hate anyone for their religion, but there is a lot of turning a blind eye (in the Muslim community) to what is going on.....drug dealing by young men, the grooming of teenage girls, honour killings and beatings and forced marriages. Everybody knows this, the police and the general public. ]End Quote.

lemongrove, can you please provide links advising on what percentage of the Muslim population of Britain engage in the above illegal activities.

In all ethnic sectors of British society you have persons who will carry out illegal activities. However, they are a small minority, and in that, no sector or ethnic group should be judged by the actions of minorities.

When the above is carried out, it then forms the bases of Islamophobia, antisemitism and many other forms of racism.

eloethan you make my point for me, and it is fascinating how quickly we can go from agreeing that racism etc are not just undesirable, but illegal, and almost immediately fallinto the trap of identifying muslims with undesirable behaviour and that “everyone” knows this.

We may not understand this but the language being used is racist. pointing the finger at a particular group under the guise of common sense and “everyone knows” but if you substituted Muslim for any other particular group, and then went on and picked out issues and behaviours that a tiny minority of that group indulge, but used language that blanketed that group, it is wrongly identifying a whole group.

We have to be very careful in our language, as we can so easily fall into this trap.

I think you're misinterpreting what has been said Eloethan. Posters have said that people can't, or shouldn't dislike anyone for their religion. Quite right, they shouldn't. But they have also said that is perfectly reasonable to dislike, or criticise certain activities that some people may approve of, or even take part in. You must have heard of the old adage, dislike the behaviour, not the child. Well there we have it in a nutshell.

So we have here people making blanket statements about "law abiding" Jewish people and stating that there is "no excuse" for them to be targetted by people whose anti-semitism cannot be justified.

On the other hand, Muslim people are characterised en masse as turning a "blind eye" to all sorts of criminal behaviour and cruel and immoral practices. The underlying message appears to be that Muslims, as a whole, are responsible for the islamophobia that is justifiably directed at them.

Really????

Yes Lemon, you have hit the nail on the head.
People are upset by the events, not the religion.
I was upset to lose my Muslim friends when I left work, but although I put out receptive comments, I knew from the reaction that an outside school friendship was impossible. This will rumble on I suppose, until such times as proper assimilation comes about, and everyone worships however they wish to, but everyone mixes socially. Most Jewish people do this already, but the immigration of Muslims is much newer and will take time. Some Muslims are assimilated of course, but not all yet.

I forgot to add to the list, homophobia, and the amount of Muslim young men and some young women who are keen to turn their back on our society and join the likes of ISIS.

You can’t (shouldn’t) hate anyone for their religion, but there is a lot of turning a blind eye (in the Muslim community) to what is going on.....drug dealing by young men, the grooming of teenage girls, honour killings and beatings and forced marriages.Everybody knows this, the police and the general public.These things, more than religion are what people dislike.
Jewish people have been here for as long as anyone else, and are as law abiding.....there is the difference, and there is no excuse or reason for antisemitism.

Well then we agree WW.

I will admit that I couldn’t bring myself to tell my Muslim friends that my son is gay, not because I have a problem with that, and I normally tell anyone and everyone, but I could not bring myself to do it.I suppose I was afraid of what the reaction might be, of causing those really nice people embarrassment. But I’m ashamed of myself for not telling them. It’s irrelevant now of course, since I no longer work, and I knew it would be impossible to stay friends once our ways parted, it’s sad isn’t it?

You don’t have to come to terms with homophobia, none of us do. It is against the law pure and simple. As is FGM, honour killings and forced marriage, gender discrimination etc.

But none of that should translate into a general hatred for all those who practice a particular religion.

That is the insidious reality of some in the U.K. and must be rejected at every turn possible

Yes WW, you’re right of course. There are some aspects of Christianity that I struggle with too. In fact, I’ve just returned from a touring holiday of the southern states of America, I learnt a lot, and enjoyed my holiday, but I did feel some disquiet about some aspects of ‘the Bible belt’ that I was able to observe. But that is a whole new thread.

I don’t have any problem in separating the genders in secondary education, my own children were educated from eleven in single sex schools. So that isn’t a problem for me, although it may be for some. The problem is different treatment of the sexes, with one gender receiving something inferior. That’s my problem. Plus as I said before, honour killings in particular, and also hatred of homosexuality. How am I supposed to come to terms with that as a parent of a gay son?

It’s difficult to know exactly what people’s feelings are in any political party, so maybe the investigations will help us to know the truth.

maddy

The same is true if some Jewish schools. The genders are separated. Many fee paying schools also separate the genders that are Christian based.

You are perfectly entitled to believe various aspects of different religions are uncomfortable and in your opinion wrong.

I have a problem with some Christian religions and their misogyny, but I do not extrapolate that into feeling distrustful of all Christians, likewise your comment about knowing many people who follow Islam. But we ar3nt talking about that.

Racism “others” people and singles them out regardless of their lifestyle etc.

Muslim reports say, unfortunately, that it is endemic in the Tory party, and I suspect that the conclusion that it is also anti Semitic is certain if you read its history right up to present day.

I struggle with this, to be honest. I have worked with many Muslims, I have personal friends who are Jewish. But Ellan, you make a very valid point, how do we get our heads around the fact that such things as honour killings, hate of homosexuality, and forced marriage all go on in the one religion, but not the other. I really do struggle with this. All the Muslim people I worked with were delightful, and I’m sure they wouldn’t have engaged in any of the above, but the fact remains that boys were given private education but not girls (in the same family) and children never attended any out of school hours events, ever.

I liked Sajid Javid and think he could have been a good PM. But institutional Islamaphobia in the Conservatives seems unlikely given he got as far as he did in the race to be PM. He wouldn’t got that far if the Conservative Party was Islamaphobic.

The usual dishonest, underhand way he does everything. Ridicule people and then pretend your objective was to defend them.

Even Sajid Javid expressed some bewilderment at the fact that he had been excluded from the state banquet in Trump's honour, whilst politicians of equal or lesser seniority were invited.

I don’t have much time for BJ but his comments about Muslim women ( some ) looking like letterboxes was written in an article by him defending their right to wear what they please ( however silly it may look to our society.)

WW2- will those comments ever be officially reported? Will they be made public?

Somehow don't think so. There is a very good reason why Bris has gone back on his promise to investigate - because he knows that it is true, and not 'pretty', at all.

During the height of the Irish troubles I had Irish work colleagues who were abused because they were Irish (their accents gave them away) on the basis that all Irish people were, at the very,least, closet terrorists.

It is much the same with Islamaphobia. There will always be an ignorant contingent of the general public who blame a group for the actions of a few of that group.

Look how the Brexit vote has been used to encourage inter generational hostility. Young people are told that old people as a group voted Brexit and ruined their future. In truth many didn't. In my neck of the woods, where most people voted to remain, so did most of the older people.

A dossier has been received by ITV which lists some seriously racial statements by Tory party members.

Some are so disgusting that they can’t possibly be quoted.

Great post Grandad- exactly.

And it would be easy to change the words around to apply to some radical Jews who are currently stealing the land and destroying the lives of the Palestinians. I have a big problem with them, and I am NOT anti-semitic.

The foreign ones will be in jail, of course ! Discrimination do you think ?

It could do M0nica, after all a terrorist is a terrorist and I did say British.

GrannyGravy13 Quote [I have not got a problem with Muslims.

I have a problem with the likes of Daesh, the radical Imams and the terrorists who blow up children at pop concerts, drive cars into tourists on a bridge in London and who go after people on a night out in and around Borough Market. These Terrorists were all followers of what I can only describe as Radical Islam.

Does that make me Islamaphobic?] End Quote.

GrannyGravy13, those you speak on above are criminals in the same bracket as the street gangs who attack and knife others for nothing more than "drug sale turf".

Those so-called Muslims, through their warped minds kill and maim in the name of religion, while street gangs kill and maim in the name of territory and money.

Neither of the above groups is in any way representative of their ethnic backgrounds or the British population in general. For as stated, they are criminals that hide behind a facade that allows them in their warped minds to carry out what they do in a senseless front of legitimacy.

To hate the above people is not to be Islamophobic, but it is to hate the criminals who carry out the above actions, which is a normal reaction in many British people. However, no one should allow that hate to encompass the whole Muslim population of Britain.

No of course not gg13

Neither does having a problem with Israeli expansionist policies and their treatment if Palestinians make me anti Semitic

Ellen does that include all Irish and extreme right wing terrorists?

In 2017 there were 3,000 terrorists/extremists on our streets. Mainly British. To say nothing of the hundreds who've returned from Syria.