Remainer opinion of leavers

Of course people fear nationalism, populism, fascism. - as indeed do many people who voted leave.

* but the Leavers just believe in NF and his cohorts * - how do you know that? It is a big assumption. Some leave voters had sound reasons for their vote; there are some sound reasons. It is a matter for tying to balance the pros and cons.

It is like saying all Tory voters are uncaring; or all Labour voters and reds. It does not help to make these simplistic assumptions.

Dialogue and listening are what is needed. We have been led down a very troublesome path by the ghastly Cameron; we do not have to let that divide us or make us stop listening to others and respecting their different views.

Yes James is a good radio host and obviously a decent guy but he’s paid by LBC to be pro remain just as Nick Ferrari is paid to be a brexiteer. So let’s stop hero worshipping and start being objective.

We run a business. Brexit will be ok. Remain would probably be easier.

However Business adapt that’s what successful businesses do. If you can’t adapt to the market you go bust.

The problem is uncertainty with this woeful Tory mess of a government.

The sooner we all stop the hand wringing and nonsense and emotion the Better!

It’s a trade block ffs!! We stay or leave. It’s neither Armageddon or the best thing since sliced bread. We just need to decide Innot out and move on to far more important things.

But the main point is that people are tweeting the most odious things about Leave voters, and I have no reason to disbelieve the Gransnetters who have said similar odious things are being tweeted about Remain voters. Is this the the pinnacle of our social media and our advancement then? That people use Twitter to post abhorrent messages to, or about individuals or groups in society that they dislike/disagree with. We are supposed to be an advanced and civilised society, we pride ourselves on being inclusive and tolerant. Does tolerance only operate towards those we ageee with? Does tolerance and inclusion stop when people get old? Well as far as Matt Kelly is concerned, it most certainly does, and I don’t know, but it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that he thinks he is really on trend and accepting of difference. Whatever he thinks, he most certainly is not accepting of differences, nor is he tolerant. I’m glad that I’ve got three caring adult children, and that they are not remotely like him. I pity his poor elderly parents if they are still alive.

Oh this too will pass!

Ignore the idiots

maddy Twitter is so much more than trading insults (although that exists of course). I genuinely enjoy tweeting, have learned such a lot from a huge range of people and contributed to supportive threads . There are also some really witty tweeters that make me laugh out loud. One of my favourite Tweeters is the Secret Barrister who is in turn witty and erudite on legal matters. You can block anyone you want ( and be blocked) it’s great

I quite like Twitter - you can select who you follow, I like reading comments on the Archers, musicians I like, environmental groups, couture sewing and other hobbies etc. I don’t follow any extreme political tweets as that’s where the horrible racists, misogynists etc spout their poison. If the OP thinks that his/ her example is. the worse that can be imagined he/ she needs to get out the smelling salts - rape threats, death threats to people’s families, wishing all the old were dead etc. It’s awful, just don’t go there.

Jabber you can choose your friends on Facebook and unfriend people if you don't like them so it is a lovely place to be. Twitter is another matter and you enter into some threads at your peril, bit like here though with less rules. You don't have to respond to people so can interact as much or as little as you like.

Leaver have been preaching to the converted too. I however have been asking for good reasons to vote leave and only one person has responded and I politely pointed out that her reasons related only to her family. I've lost count of the people who have said they won't tell me and am left wondering if they can't. Not many days left to change my mind before I vote.

Dinahmo it is 70+ countries we have agreements with in addition to the EU but through the EU. We will lose all of them.

Lucky I agree that generalisations are unhelpful. I also agree that "Dialogue and listening are what is needed." but leavers refuse to tell me their reasons so that is not dialogue. I've been accused of all sorts of things about why I ask the question, none of them correct but I still have only one answer which was unconvincing but at least it was an answer.

Mycat you said "If you can’t adapt to the market you go bust." and I think that will happen. Other will or have moved, some will have to shed staff and the knock on effect will hurt us all.

maddy I have been on pro and con twitter threads and can assure you that the vast majority of nasty posts I have seen have come from leavers. I am sorry to say as well that many of them are semi-literate and showing either denial or a complete lack of understanding. No, I don't think all leavers are like that, I hope not, but that is what I have seen on the threads I have been on.

crystal I do go on the political threads in the (vain) hope that I will be able to change people's minds. I'll stop on Friday

This can’t be solved with a group hug. Someone will have to lose. Let’s accept that.

Nonnie why on earth are you still complaining that ‘leavers’ continue to refuse to get into dialogues with you about their reasons for voting leave.....it was three years ago!
As far as I can see, nobody wants to change your mind, so go ahead and vote this week however you like.
Just accept that most people, including those who voted to remain, are still happy with the way they voted.
The continued use by you of the ‘ leavers are semi literate’
Refrain is very, very boring.
We will be leaving the EU and people will have to get used to that fact.

urmstongran

You are very huggy today

but leavers refuse to tell me their reasons so that is not dialogue

I think Nonnie illustrates the arrogance of Remainers here.

Why on earth is anyone who voted duty bound, or obliged to tell you the reasons why they voted as they did??? All I get from remainers is " We are better off in" or "Better the devil we know".

I am afraid they are not convincing arguments either, but I do not rage or accuse them of being blinkered, short-sighted, uneducated, or lacking in constructive argument.

Remainers have never accepted the result.

It's interesting that Leavers are now being smeared all over again by Remainers for supporting the Brexit Party. Such vile arrogance! The party could be the brain child of any Leaver. Farage is secondary to the issues. The issue is democracy being seen to matter, and our parliamentarians listening and really meaning it when they say they will respect and honour the result of the referendum. They lied, plain and simple.

We have been lied to and deceived by those we elected to serve us.

The Brexit Party suits me and millions of other fair-minded and concerned citizens. No wonder so many are in support. It's not clandestine or sinister, much as Remainers try to make it so.

It's not about left or right - it's about right and wrong and millions of people feel the same way. I know many who voted Remain who will now vote to Leave because of the ugly war waged on Leave voters and the way in which parliament has one again worked in a bubble to ignore the man and woman on the street.

I value democracy and everyone who does. I hope the sneering Matt Kelly and The European sink as a result of his crass assumption and sweeping generalisations about the old and the nature of a Brexit Party supporter.

Following the news a regarding the Brexit Party it is obvious to all but the blinkered and scared that people from all ages and backgrounds are angry and backing the Brexit Party.

Day6

I think that’s s fair post.

Nonnie

We run a small business and Brexit isn’t the issue. Businesses adapt.

The issue is uncertainty. Brexit we can cope with. As will most businesses.

And if the new pm had the guts to slash corporation tax business would flock here.

leavers refuse to tell me their reasons

Most of my leaver friends voted leave because the vast majority of the EU countries are either in or heading into recession and we are doing rather well so it’s a case of leaving the ship before it sinks.

Concerns about open borders and the impact on schools housing and the NHS.

The EU accounts not being signed off and massive pensions and salaries with expenses for EU staff and it becoming much much to gravy train like.

Think those were the main ones.

I have read many posts from leavers explaining their reasons I don’t think you actually listen though do you?

In regards to older people more likely to be leavers, one of the points that occurs to me and I don't think I have ever seen brought out is that these are the people who voted in the referendum in the 1970s and many will have voted to remain then, still under the erroneous impression that the EEC (as was) was a trade block and was likely to remain so.

They have watched it morph into a huge political club with the Euro and a one-size-fits all economic philosophy and see that down the road (if it doesn't all fall apart) we might be looking at a United States of Europe, with a European army and intra-national government in Brussels, with Westminster being reduced to the level of a regional government body (for example).

Now, whether that is good or bad depends on your point of view of course, but I think many older people do foresee that and don't want that to happen.

Lemon because I want to know! I would have thought it was obvious because if I am wrong I want to know why before I vote on Thursday. Please re-read my post and then apologise for suggesting I said what I didn't.

Day6 please explain how asking for reasons to believe that leaving is right can be arrogance? It is exactly the opposite! In most areas of GN when you ask for help you get it. Of course you are not duty bound but why don't you want to? You all come on here with opinions why if you haven't any facts? I am happy to give you my reasons to remain if you ask for them. I have nothing to hide.

Of course we haven't accepted the result, that is our right. I quote "all it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing". For those of us who recognised the propaganda as lies and for all who read that the leave campaign broke electoral law as well as all those who think the whole thing is wrong it is a duty to try to prevent what we believe is wrong for our country. Of course it is.

Yes leavers are being smeared but so are remainers, no difference, see both sides.

Democracy is vital, I agree, we just have different views of what that means. All true believers in democracy won't have a problem with a vote on whether to accept the deal or stay in the EU.

I cannot agree that NF is secondary, he seems to be front and centre and no one can dispute that he has lied and cheated. I struggle with "The Brexit Party suits me and millions of other fair-minded and concerned citizens" because I think fair-minded an moral are closely linked and what that non-party (business) has done is not very moral.

I agree its about right and wrong and my moral values will not allow me to vote for anything involving NF. We each have to look at ourselves and make our own decisions based upon our personal values.

Mycat not all business will be able to adapt. Neither will all big businesses as we have already seen with the ones who have left. I agree that the uncertainty is crippling. I don't agree that a new PM will make a difference in any respect! A plague on all their houses to missquote the Bard.

I do listen but have discounted all the ones about unelected, drunks leaders, bendy bananas and all the other clearly daft reasons. Leaving because it is not perfect is not a good reason because no system is perfect. Better to change from the inside than go it alone as one tiny country. Imagine corner shop trying to compete for buying power with Tesco.

I can understand the first reason but think it is premature and don't think leaving would gain from that. Better to stay and try to improve.

Can't agree about open borders because it has been proved time and time again that EU people living here are net inputters to the economy. I think that may be because a lot of them are young and don't need schools and NHS so much. So if we don't allow them in we will lose their taxes. Of course we will still have a lot of immigrants, they just won't be from the EU.

Gravy train and financial incompetence are understandable and apply to our civil servants too. However, it is a drop in the ocean against what we will lose.

Thanks for that, at last a rational discussion with someone. You have put reasons and I have said why I disagree. Wish others would be so reasonable. You can agree or disagree with what I think but it is nice when it is done politely. Thanks again.

You are right not all businesses will cope but that’s in any changing environment and every environment changes.

I think it’s been tried to change the EU from the inside and it hasn’t worked. It’s got bigger and potentially more corrupt as more countries join.

The youth unemployment rate in france Greece and Spain is shocking and thank god we didn’t join the euro.

It’s not stopped wars (Yugoslavia,) it’s jot stopped genocide (Bosnia) and perversely it’s presided over the rise of the far right in countries like Hungary and ignored the blood shed in Catalonia.

all it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing

Spot on there the EU did nothing.

All I have heard from remainers are the stress and heritage will have their budgets cut and posh kids won’t have Erasmus.

Immigration of course will continue but surely it’s sensible to pick and choose who comes based on the job skills market?

We will make sensible trade arrangements the aero industry already has.

The EU started with very sensible intentions as a trading agreement. It’s now become a huge corrupt nightmare and quite frankly we will no better out.

And actually I voted remain and have changed my mind.

If only business leaders were in charge of Brexit and not these god awful incompetent MPs and Junket it would be done dusted and successful for all sides.

I think it's great , very funny and I'm glad he had milkshake thrown at him. It was brilliant.

PS What a complete load of old rubbish the whole sad saga is.

mycat is Erasmus only for posh kids? Please explain why?

But we don't pick and choose who comes into the UK do we? I actually know a leave voter who voted because he didn't want brown people into the country. The only way we will be able to recruit into some jobs will be to take brown people. Makes no difference to me where they come from. Not sure they will do the seasonal jobs though.

Yes, we were told that trade deals would be easier but that has been proved to be wrong. I admire you faith but don't share it. We won't be able to do good deals with any of the 70+ countries we have deals with as part of the EU and everything we buy from them will be more expensive because of tariffs and the devaluation of the pound.

I agree the EU has become huge but not that it is wholly corrupt. Unfortunately corruption is in all governments and their departments, just gets highlighted more because of what it is. I agree with you that we will be no better out though.

I have to say it is very refreshing to have such a reasonable debate without hurling insults. Thanks again.

How do you expect the EU to stop violence in a member country? Send in an army?

Luckygirl - it's my understanding that the fishermen themselves sold their quotas to other countries.

I doidn't see the rally that Matt Kelly described but having seen other rallies on tv perhaps we're getting ahead of ourselves in linking piss to the elderly. I saw mainly burly young men who may have had a few pints and are more likely to be the cause of wet floors!

Mycatisahacker - it's because of the businessmen that we are in these dire straits. Rees Mogg wants us to trade with Australia and buy their beef. He doesn't see the need for controls of the meat coming into the UK because it would have been inspected by the Australians and he trusts them. It soesn't matter to him that Australian beef is full of hormones and will be sold cheaply here. According to him we can make our minds up whether to go for quality or cheapness. Of course he won't be eating Australian beef because no doubt his comes from Harrods or one of the other smart butchers in Knightsbridge or Kensington.