"There will be NO renegotiation!" says Juncker for EU. Let us get out NOW!

MazieD
I believe the euro will fail, purely because of the amount of debt, and with that the face of Europe as we know it now.
I certainly think there's a global recession on the way.

If, during the run up to the referendum, remain had argued that it would result in 3,500 troops being on standby to deal with any violence/complications etc even I would have labelled it 'project fear'. At what point will people actually look at what is happening to what was once a great country and decide that enough is enough.

"Why is the Irish border made out to be such a big problem
History? Religion?"
Oldbatty I've asked that in the past as well. and that stupid phrase 'backstop'.
I had it explained once on here, but it still doesn't register.
Except it concerns the fact that southern Ireland Is independently a member of the EU.
And northern Ireland is not. NI is evidently part of the UK. Like Wales.

Fennel
Forget the word backstop Think of the document as an insurance policy. The eu keep repeating that it will never be used, so why do they insist on having one ?
Fennel
Can I ask: do you not think of NI and Eire as two separate countries ?

"Can I ask: do you not think of NI and Eire as two separate countries ?"
Technically yes., But otherwise, the separation doesn't seem natural . If it wasn't for the religious differences.
I don't know enough about the history.

Are you not British, Fennel?

(not trying to be snarky; I'd just be very surprised that British people of our sort of age who lived through 'the Troubles' didn't know about the history of the island of Ireland)

What Europeans really think about Brexit
Feature by David Goodhart in the Spectator.

"The final word should go to my friend Jochen Buchsteiner of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.
Like most reasonable Germans, he is saddened by our exit and thinks it unnecessary given the 'semi-detached' status we already enjoyed. 'Brexit does matter and it will weaken Britain, it will weaken Germany and make it harder to resist an eventual transfer union most Germans don't want.

But, he says, there is also a fear stalking the corridors of power in Germany and elsewhere.

What if the U.K. flourish outside the EU?

The Swedish position I quoted told me that the editor of a top Swedish newspaper had said to her that if in five to ten years' time Britain is doing fine, Sweden will probably leave, too.
The EU will become the eurozone plus an outer ring of associated countries.

Maybe Britain is the canary in the mine, says Buchsteiner. "You have often been right in the past from Henry V111 to the decision to challenge Hitler.
Perhaps, once again, you are seeing the future more clearly."

This is why I think the EU are afraid of us leaving, plus the loss of our massive payments to them.

We're one of the richest countries in the World, we are World renowned for excellence.
We ruled our own country and traded with the Workd for hundreds of years before the EU.
We will do it again!

But otherwise, the separation doesn't seem natural
Taken to a logical conclusion you could say that about the countries of Europe - one land mass, separate countries.

And the Scandinavian countries.

“We are one of the richest countries in the world” - but how is that wealth distributed? Where is that wealth? Mostly in very expensive land and property owned by a tiny % of the population, many of whom are not British, finance companies and their shareholders ditto. Doesn’t mean much to homelessness , which has doubled in the last 4 years, all those” left behind” and struggling , didn’t May claim to be focussing on them? Meanwhile, we are p* sing billions on Brexit , we haven’t enough police or army, their numbers have been cut, people are loosing their jobs in the public sector due to cutbacks ( 2 from my local primary this term) so where will all these war like preparations will lead, Westminster is eating itself , with the weakest government and worse opposition. Makes many of us despair.

Buffybee totally agree ? great post.

Buffy didn't write most of that post nn. It's a big chunk of copy & paste from the Spectator article. Most posters acknowledge quoted material by formatting or, at least, quotation marks.

We ruled our own country and traded with the Workd for hundreds of years before the EU.

We. Had. An. Empire.

It made some people very, very rich at the expense of millions of others. We do not have an empire to exploit now.

We trade with the world now. We never stopped trading with the world.

If you'd read my post properly Maisie, I made it more than clear that what I had written was copied, by heading the post:
What Europeans really think about Brexit
Feature by David Goodhart in the Spectator.

Which bit of this was not clear to you?
It is obvious to anyone that only the last few paragraphs are mine.

I see you have no comment about the article any way.

And as you so rightly mentioned. Yes we are trading with the World now and I believe we hav'nt had an Empire for many years.

What are you afraid of Maisie?

Why do you think that this country is not capable of running itself.

Why are you so happy to be dictated to by another power that has not our country's interest at heart.

Do you like being led and all decisions made by someone else?

Obviously so!

We were fine without gas and electricity in the 18th century .....
We will never be totally independent - we will have to follow WTO rules for a start - another organisation we pay money to, and who "dictate rules", we already trade all around the world, the EU hasn't stopped that, made it easier in fact. Not sure what bit of the world we will now find easier to trade with. I've no idea how people feel life will be improved come Brexit with troops on standby , medicines already in short supply etc.

The EU could not interfere with our national economy in any way whatsoever. Cameron had negotiated a permanent opt-out from the euro so it couldn't have done so in the future had we not had a moment of collective madness.

BUT the UK will be BOUND to bail out the Euro, to the tune of billions of taxpayers money, when it fails in the not too distant future. The economies of many member states are precarious. Look at Greece and now Italy.

No one ever seems to worry about the incredible COST to the UK of being one of it's biggest contributors.

Would any businessman with an iota of sense want to be tied to a deal where he continually has to bankroll failing partners, and be obliged to PAY billions every single year for the (membership) privilege of coughing up, relentlessly?

If liberal remainers think bankrolling (for the foreseeable future) small eastern european economies which contribute very little to the EU but receive a lot is good business I despair. If that doesn't sound like some sort of left wing social engineering experiment, I don't know what does.

The EU is about social engineering and creating a level playing field it seems to me, as well as doing away with borders and national identities. It is far, far more than just a trading bloc and people are beginning to understand just what is going on. Tell a French man he is the same as an Italian man or an English man or a Slovenian man. Tell a Scotsman he the same as an Irishman, Englishman or Welshman and I'd like to see the reaction.

National identity might have been triggered by the desperate flood of refugees and migrants to Europe but we saw the anger all over mainland Europe when the population and culture of countries is threatened. The no borders EU approach is a sure fire way to cause social unrest. It might be fine for elitist, educated and wealthy travellers but for those stuck where they are - and there are pitifully poor people all over Europe as well as in the UK -it's a threatening prospect, a frightening change and they have no come back. I abhor the far right as much as the hard left but it doesn't take an 'ologist' to see the recipe for unrest. It is happening all over Europe with the rise to power of nationalist political parties, fiercely proud of their homeland, traditions and culture - in much the same way the SNP are.. People are rising up against the blinkered political elite because they feel threatened and ignored.

And we have to pump billions into this chaotic mess and fund it whilst having much of our power taken from us.

No deal is the sensible way forward. Other EU member states will follow our lead before long.

Once the H of P has stopped squabbling over "Brexit" ( I hate that word), they can get on with following through the welfare reforms, and sort our the problems with Universal Credit.

There definitely needs to be a shake up of some of our vital services, Mental Health, sort out the vast differences in buying power between different Health Authorities and Councils.

They have already started with giving people more in work benefits whilst on Zero Hour contracts. There was a piece in The Guardian with regard to McDonalds offering those employees on Zero Hours a "proper contract" 70% declined as they preferred the flexibility of Zero Hours.

We are a proud nation, we have nothing to fear leaving the EU, just let's get on with it.

All trading bodies have rules - of course they do, or chaos would ensue. That is a red herring.

The UK is already part of the WTO. So is the EU.

hy would we limit ourselves to the EU when we could make agreements globally? We will still continue to trade with the EU and them with us. The terms will be different but most of the rest of the world is dealing under WTO regulations (including the EU.)

WIKI. "Only 12 countries are not WTO members. These nations do not wish to become members. They are Eritrea, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Monaco, Nauru, North Korea, Palau, San Marino, Somalia, South Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Tuvalu. " 20 Apr 2018

Great post Day6 well said. Yes it's OK for the SNP to be patriotic but if you are English and patriotic you are deemed to be racist.

Day 6, in all honesty I have never felt myself to be of one nationality.

No-one in their right mind think that "life will be improved" immediately * suzied*.
There will most probably be hard times for a few years, or maybe not. No-one knows!
And it's not just being tied to the EU's trading rules that people are sick of, our Judges have become enfeebled, their hands tied by European laws.
Jobs are being taken by freedom of movement, undercutting our tradesmen. Schools have become overcrowded, the Nhs can't cope with the influx and is on its knees. Merkel opened the borders and let millions of people in, most trying to head for the UK.
It's ok saying pour more money in and build more hospitals, build more schools, build more houses.
The influx has been too much, all at once, unregulated and no end in sight to it.
No country could cope with that.
So, you see the people who voted for Brexit could see that the EU were creating chaos in their country and voted with their feet.

I think the tide is turning Nicenanny

The lines between patriotism and racism have become blurred. There is absolutely nothing wrong with loving your homeland and heritage and we encourage it in the UK because we are a tolerant people by and large who do not fear diversity. We celebrate difference as long as we are not steamrollered by change we are told we have to accept. The Scots (a good example because they have a national party) don't much like being told by people over the border how things should be done or how money should be spent.(I find it strange that they will allow Brussels to do this, but not Westminster.)

We are seeing the rise of nationalism all over Europe. We have to ask why it's happening, and why these groups are gaining footholds in national politics. They do not want foreign interference is the simple answer, or their own governing bodies are ignoring their concern as if they don't matter.

It's a conundrum in a world where people can and do move about. If the balance tips too far the wrong way people protest. Human nature cannot be ignored.
.

I have a very, very mixed pedigree oldbatty.

I do though have a strong affinity with my place of birth and the people I grew up with...and with the places my parents came from. They make up 'me' I suppose. My parents were immigrants to the UK, I was born here and for me, this is where I feel most comfortable. I love many places around the world but know I could not settle in those countries indefinitely. I am drawn home to what is comfortable and familiar and where I feel I fit in.

I think the idea of one huge melting pot of people is offensive really. Our identity is important. We see most large cities in the UK divided by groups of people who would rather live next door to people who are like them, who also like them.

People are funny creatures. You cannot tell people what they should be like.

There are good and bad people in every country. Unfortunately some of the worst people in the UK have had the most influence.

My decision to vote Leave back in 2016 was NOT influence by any of the above Varian. Even Rees-Mogg was less prominent then and his views didn't appear on my radar. I (and you won't believe this because I am one of those supposedly thick Leavers) did my own reading around to try and understand the workings of the EU and the pros and cons of leaving/remaining.

Since then I have met many Remainers who haven't done any research. They picked a side and stuck with it, but cannot articulate the advantages of remaining tied to Brussels.

You do keep going on about Leave voters being stupid and gullible and easily influenced, don't you Varian Most of your posts insult the people who voted differently from you.

Y'know, you could be accused of doing that awful, elitist sneering thing that many Remainers have resorted to (and been criticised for) because they lost. Heaven forbid, eh?

Two points- I have never accused leave voters of being stupid but you cannot deny that many were influenced by what we all now know to be lies, and, secondly, if the brexit you voted cor is allowed to happen, we will all be losers.

I see the Belgian Priminister has been forced to resign because of his support for the new UN paper on migration.