Unions and strikes -a real threat or just a succesful media promotion.

Mostly I should also have said, that a list of some Labour manifesto pledges is misleading for me. The point I was making that it indicated on analysis that Corbyn's promises based on that list, were either unsustainably costly requiring enormous borrowing to fulfil, or in the case of the Student debt wipe out were never intended to be fulfilled. This lead me to believe that a Corbyn Labour Government would be unable to run this Country without bankrupting us.

It would be wrong to associate a Corbyn Labour Government with socialism as I recognise it. But it does indicate from the manifesto analysis, that Corbynist policy's and view of socialism would be unworkable from a cost alone, without eventually reducing the country proud socialist achievements to penury within five to ten years. These of course are personal views.

I share you views Ally

Ok so you think Labour’s policies would be costly.
But investing more money into an economy creates jobs, spending and investment and ultimately creates a buoyant, healthy economy.
This has been proven many times.
Austerity on the other hand, forces cuts to services, cash strapped NHS, creates lower employment with insecure jobs and zero hours contracts, and lowers wages. Tax receipts plummet as wages are low and debts increase. It results in low growth.
I know which I prefer.

If you join a thread and feel the need to comment, it’s a good idea to read the whole thread allyg otherwise you’re in danger of misinterpreting things or just repeating what has already been said.
This point has been put forward many times but it is not always possible to do that, particularly on a very long thread.
Perhaps referring back to the OP occasionally is a good idea?

Allygran1, in response to your posting today @ 18:02 (28/05/18) I have never been a member of Momentum, but have been a subscribing trade union member since 1970. In that the Transport & General Workers Union (now the Unite Union) have provided me, along with many thousands of others with much of my basic and adult education by way of its services to its members.

Therefore, to state that the hierarchy of the Labour movement is made up of largely very well educated, privileged, professionals from elite groups is simply a fallacy in regard to those from within the union movement. Certainly within the Unite Union and I would believe most other unions all those involved in organising are recruited from within the membership and the positions are not advertised outside the organisation.

Len McCluskey, his deputy Steve Turner and all the National Organizers along with the Regional and District Secretaries are brought up through the organisation from the roots of being workplace shop floor reps. Only staff positions are advertised and recruited from outside the organisation.

In the above it is simply not the case for anyone to state that any of the above persons have come from an elite privileged backgrounds. Many of them like myself have gained a better education from the union services and then made their way up the ladder either inside or outside the union benefiting from the tremendous support and education given to any who wish to take part.

As stated I know little of Momentum and its membership background, but I do believe that many grassroots activists from the trade unions were involved in Momentum at its outset to gain more democracy throughout the Labour movement.

The above in regards to education and trade union organisation has been my own personal experience over many years and not something printed in a newspaper.

Lord Robens was economical with the truth was in the papers and at the enquiry, I heard it

anniebach, you keep referring to the Aberfan disaster and its following enquiry. The collapse of an enormous slag heap onto a school was indeed one of the worst acts of negligence by any professional body (the National Coal Board) in the history of mining.

However, that negligence occurred was in1966 and the act of parliament that would have brought those responsible to justice did not pass into enactment until 1974. That parliamentary bill was the Health & Safety at Work legislation and was brought about as a response to the Aberfan disaster and other large workplace incidents that came about in the 1950s and 1960s.

Sadly, at the time of the of the disaster at Aberfan there was not the strength of legislation to bring anyone in top management at the National Coal Board to real justice as I remember it.

As I remember it, and God I do because i was involved. Do not offer excuses, those children were murdered , lies were told so no guilt laid fully at anyone’s feet because of the strength of the unions. Why didn’t they demand justice ? Not a damn squeak .

Read the findings on the enquiry and do not excuse the guilty.

Yes I keep referring to it, will continue to do so every time there is praise for unions being for the working man, not so.

"Allygran1 Mon 28-May-18 18:02:36
Grandad sadly all that Corbyn has achieved is to form an activist group made up of largely very well educated, privileged, professionals from elite groups:.

Grandad with respect you have misinterpreted what I said above. The activist group is Momentum, not the trade Unions or the Labour Party Membership. These are people who form the hierarchy of Momentum (see the article on the post).

As for your comments about Trade Union education I associate with your comments from my own experiences in one of my working lives, at the Co-operative College in Loughborough where we taught amongst other things, Trade Union studies, and Co-operative business to the world from the British students of all ages, Icelanders, Soloman Islanders and everywhere inbetween.

My view is that it is not good to become myopic on these matter's. Our experience (anyone of us) is only relevant if it is current. So now I can't do I read and try to keep up to speed, as it seems we all do on Gransnet.

I am sorry if I was not clear in the original post.

Annibach The trauma of Aberfan is something I imagine that will be with you for ever. Your anger is born out of the experiences of that time. The tragedy itself was compounded by the National Union of Mineworkers, failing to support the villagers, many of whom were employed by the NCB and were NUM members. It is hard even now to find archived documents that show any support from the NUM during the struggle to reach the truth about the source of the 'slip'. Even Harold Wilson said it was caused by an underground stream if I remember this correctly. To be fair he was most likely briefed to say that, but nevertheless I never heard him withdraw that comment.

Grandad mentions the 1974 legislation that came about out of the disaster and was sadly not available to bring the NCB culprits to justice, however what he does not say is, I understand your grief, and your anger that the National Union of Mineworkers were invisible, ineffectual and cowardly. No institution is perfect and Aberfan stands out like a beacon of shame on the NUM as well as the NCB.

Aberfan happened in the 1960s. There were many shameful things happening then - and in years to come people will no doubt look back and see many shameful things that have happened since that time - Hillsborough, Grenfell, etc. etc. and they won't all be the fault of unions.

anniebach Your constant criticism of unions is in marked contrast to your comments of 2015:

"Anyway this Thatcherite government is hard at work making the Labour Party a minor party, change of boundaries - as did thatcher - attacking the unions - as did thatcher, we do not have a tory government we have a thatcher government, greed is good is back"

"So much is said on the winter of discontent during a labour government term, yes it was difficult but the whole country struggled with it. What of the years of discontent under the thatcher government ? Riots in the streets, rise in homeless , the divide between North and South , the whole country didn't struggle, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer..."

And then, in 2017, your interpretation of historic political events appeared to undergo a complete transformation:

"What I can remember of the strikes in the seventies

Power strikes
Miners strikes
Bakers strike
Dock strikes
Lorry drivers strike
Ambulance driver strike
Bin collections strike
Grave diggers strike"

"Eloethan Mon 28-May-18 23:39:03
Aberfan happened in the 1960s. There were many shameful things happening then - and in years to come people will no doubt look back and see many shameful things that have happened since that time - Hillsborough, Grenfell, etc. etc. and they won't all be the fault of unions."

Hi Eloethan,

Although your post is directed at Anniebach. I have to say that in my view the criticism of the NUM is solely about the Aberfan disaster. It does not imply that any other Union is being criticised nor is the NUM being criticised outside of the context of Aberfan. The behaviour of the NUM then, and in the subsequent investigations of the Aberfan disaster is all that is in question in Anniebach post as far as I can see.

It would seem your defence of the Trade Union movement as a whole is not required. Anniebach criticism is singular and specific, not plural and general. It surprises me that you could construe from the post by Anniebach anything other.

I think Eloethan that your post is a typical, ‘let’s quickly move on, nothing to see here!’ Comment, regarding the NUM.
as Allygran rightly says your defence of the trade union movement is not required, this is about a specific event, and the fact that it was in the 1960’s is neither here nor there.

Further to that Eloethan your constant digging into old threads does you no credit, it’s the forum equivalent of nosy parker readings of old postcards or net curtain twitchers.
Annie is a Labour supporter just as you are, but the difference is that she sees Corbyn as the old Marxist that he is, not as the saviour of the masses.

lemongrove It was terrible what happened with Aberfan and many people bore responsibility but, it seems, they were not properly held accountable. However, it happened in the 60's and I would imagine most of the people who were responsible are dead.

Throughout this thread - and many others - anniebach has been highly critical of unions and their leaders, and has frequently referred to Aberfan as an example of the evils of unions.

As for me "digging up old threads", I really don't care whether you believe it gives me no credit - I am not courting your - or anyone else's - approval. As with "tricky" politicians, I question the integrity of someone who says one thing on one day and something entirely different on another. Of course, people can alter their views re various issues and people but that is not the same as giving completely opposing interpretations of various events.

Am sure that annie will give you her own views Eloethan but you have done this ‘digging up old threads’ thing before a few times now, you may not care what others think, but it seems an unpleasant trait to me.
People who cannot change their views when circumstances alter become reactionary stick in the muds.

If you read my last sentence - "of course people can alter their views re various issues and people ..." I have already acknowledged the point you make.

Gransnet is a public forum and people who post on the threads do so in that knowledge. It would, I think, other than in the most serious cases of public interest, be underhand and unfair to quote from a private messages or material that has been obtained by deception. In my view, it is reasonable to point out the discrepancies and contradictions in what a poster has publicly declared at various times.

My views, have not changed, I support unions when they work for their members , I do not support unions controlling governments. I am against restricting the power of unions to defend their workers, I am against Corbyn giving even stronger power to the unions.

I only bring up Aberfan when praise I say heaped on unions for their dedication to the people since they were formed. I don’t give a fig that is was fifty one years ago. I care deeply the unions didn’t support us and protected the head of the NCB, that ‘stream ‘ was running into the village when my father was in that school, he would be 101 years old this week, it was running into the village when I was in that school. Yes my life has been scared by that day, I watched fathers, grandfathers and uncles digging out their children’s bodies, I watched my father cry as he said ‘I helped put that muck which has killed all those little ones up there. But the deep scars were caused by the deceit which followed, the villagers had to fight, no union support , in fact union betrayal and a PM trapped in their power.

Eleothan, dig away, I admit it is unpleasant being stalked, being the stalker is at best sad, at worse vile.

For new posters when Corbyn stood for leader I supported him and said so, I then learned things I was unaware of so to quote Margaret Hodge- I thought he was an honourable man But he is a devious man intent on destroying the Labour Party,

Annie x

Annie x

Lemon grove well said!

This post is a re-post from another thread about Brexit. However it is about the Trade Unions and Momentum and this years LPC. The Unions it seems are combining with Momentum on pushing for a far left radical agenda for a Corbyn led Government. So I hope you think it is relevant to this post. If not sorry for wasting your time.

Allygran1 Tue 29-May-18 16:25:31
A Labour Party in internal ideology conflict. The battle between far left activist group Momentum and Trade Unions who want a puppet Government in the UK Parliament so that they can pull the strings of power!

A report in the Guardian says: "At last year’s Labour conference in Brighton, Momentum and some of the unions joined forces to prevent the Brexit issue being debated in order to avoid exposing the party split and embarrassing the relatively Eurosceptic Corbyn. At the time, many of his MPs and peers were pushing for him to back permanent membership of the single market.
This year the arguments over Brexit look likely to be even more heated and calls for a debate will be far more difficult to resist in September, when the date of the UK’s departure will be less than six months away."

"Michael Chessum, who was on Momentum’s first steering committee in 2016/17 and is now national organiser of the leftwing anti-Brexit group"
“ I’m confident that they will support the right of members to democratically debate issues as pivotal as Brexit and free movement. There should be a consensus around that"

Twenty something Chessums confidence in my view no doubt comes from the support that Momentum gave mob handed during the General Election campaign to support Corbyn's campaign. Deals been struck and Corbyn will no doubt have to deliver his side of the deal now.

Twenty something, "Michael Chessum, national organiser of the anti-Brexit group Another Europe is Possible: ‘It is urgent that we clearly place an alternative to Brexit on the table– one linked to a radical vision for society under a Corbyn-led Labour government.”
Chessum should have said far left Marxist/Trotsky Government under Corbyn. Radical I suspect being code of far left communist state ownership of everything. Home ownership will disappear and the right to freedom of speech will, as is being witnessed by non far left wing labour party members and MPs, now, is being squashed by personal attack, taunts and even physical threats of violence and degrading acts against women MP's, all intended to silence if not enforce conformity to the far left line.

I predict that there will be an attempt to oust Corbyn by the real Labour Party, if that fails, then we will see a reclaiming of the name Labour from the Corbyn led far left controlled by Momentum and increasingly of necessity The Trade Unions who need the additional political activist muscle. With a break away Labour Party that the moderate left and centre will be happy to associate with and vote for the tables will be turned and the proud Labour name reclaimed for the traditional Labour voter.

Should an alternative Labour Party emerge the ground swell will be from outside of London I predict. This will bring the internal Labour Party conflict into the open. My view is that the far left will be pushed to the margins by the real Labour Party voters if they are given an alternative party with Labour values with which they can associate and vote for.

Union influence on the Labour Party is acceptable so long as it does not attempt to overthrow the labour vote at the general election when Corbyn stood on a pro-Brexit platform. For the Momentum activist and the Trade Unions to come together to attempt to subvert the General Election labour vote is an act of sabotage against democracy.

Pasted elements in this Post are from:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/26/corbyn-under-pressure-momentum-give-members-vote-labour-brexit-policy?C

I long to see the return of the real Labour Party . Oh for the party conferences when freedom of speech was the norm, even if at times stormy .

The recent Labour Party political broadcast gave us a school in Islington, a youth club in Islington, sod the rest of the U.K.

Your right Anniebach it seems everything now is London-centric!

Yes Eleothan, most people responsible for what happen in Aberfan are dead from old age . Many who died would have been grannies now and perhaps on this forum. Not the young mothers who took their own lives after the enquiry though.