Unions and strikes -a real threat or just a succesful media promotion.

Ah I see it's on the same level as your Corbyn posts- lots of imagination and bile, very little facts. So in fact no government has ever been "controlled by the unions'. It remains one of those urban myths, promoted by a right wing press.

I can't see the difference between governments controlled by unions and governments controlled by non-domiciled billionaire newspaper owners. Neither are particularly desirable.

But then, because of the nature of our first past the post voting system, most governments rarely represent the full range of the population.

When I posted on them Trisher you defended the Unions , you certaintly didn't dismiss them as you have now

I haven't "dismissed them" Annie. I have said and I maintain that they are valuable institutions representing the voices of working people. That they have worked to acheive proper wages, good working conditions and hours and to ensure and protect human rights. I don't believe they have ever controlled governments, I do think some governments have delberately targe.ted them and used the police and media to blacken their reputation.
Once again please post your evidence for union control of a government if you have any

Once again I have posted them several times and you joined the discussion.

But this is a new thread so you need to support your allegations if they are to have any relevance Annie. I don't expect you to do anything by the way, I expect that as usual you will make unfounded allegations and pretend that you have some sort of secret knowledge none of the rest of us are privy to. In fact it probably isn't worth you even replying to me as you wil post more of the same. Still I supppose it keeps you happy.

I think it can be acknowledged that unions, in earlier times, were run almost exclusively by men and were not perfect. The unions did not support the Ford women workers who sought equal pay and the unions have not always behaved as well as might be expected. However, their behaviour and attitudes reflected the behaviour and attitudes that existed then.

I think unions are essential and are, on the whole, a force for good. They have been weakened by successive governments and perhaps it is no coincidence that pay and working conditions have deteriorated significantly over the last few years.

I agree about what happened with men and control Eleothan it is interesting to wonder why this happened. I know for example that there were women in the NE very active in the Union movement during WW1 and after that. One of them- Lisbeth Simm-,a name now lost to history, was sent to Australia twice to look at working conditions there. It is perhaps linked in to what happens after wars when women tend to be pushed back into 'suitable' roles. I know there are women working hard in unions now so progress is being made.

They have been weakened by successive governments

I think that you have to add the right-wing media to that. They constantly promoted the image of unions as being solely for the purpose of calling their members out on strike (and have relentlessly pushed the myth of the 70s).

Whenever I was working I was always in a union but many colleagues would refuse to join on the grounds that they 'didn't believe in going on strike'. Hard to convince them that striking was a very small part of union activity but the very fact of a large membership with the potential to strike was a potent tool in negotiations.

Someone mentioned workers on the board earlier. The idea has always appealed to me.

The strikes in the seventies are not a myth

I think workers on boards is an excellent idea as well MaizieD and I wonder why it doesn't happen more. An indication that the class system still dominates in the UK perhaps?

Most of you are saying that unions are a 'good thing' - until they bare their teeth.
If a reasonable amount of discussion and negotiation are not working, and there is still a perceived issue, then sometimes withdrawal of labour is the only answer. They do not 'seek to control the government' - they seek to rectify grievances of their members. They seek fair pay and fair treatment. If their Strike Action means you struggle to get to work, or some other inconvenience, then that just goes to prove that their work is worthwhile and deserves to be recognised as such.

There has been a very successful campaign over the years to portray union activity as almost criminal. That anyone who supports them are troublemakers. We are blindly slipping back to the bad old days. Zero Hour contracts, poor wages, withdrawal of benefits, demonising the sick and homeless. I find it rather terrifying!

There were very real reasons for the industrial relations problems in the 1970's. Should they occur today, I would imagine there would be great resentment and unrest amongst working people and - if not an outbreak of industrial action - a huge drop in morale and productivity.

1973 was the start of the oil crisis when the OPEC embargo against certain countries, including the US and the UK, resulted in oil prices quadrupling from $3 a barrel to $12 a barrel. This obviously had a very significant effect on other prices, because of the massive increase to transport and other costs.

In 1974 the Conservatives lost their majority and Labour formed a coalition with smaller parties. Inflation in that year was still very high, running at an average of 25%, with a peak rate of 27%. The Labour coalition government managed to secure the "Social Contract" capping increases in pay to 5%. But by 1979, after five years of restraint, resentment was building. People like the Ford workers, a company making huge profits which had given its CEO an 80% pay rise, decided they'd had enough of restraint when it applied only to them. Other workers also demanded that their unions return to "free collective bargaining" on their behalf.

According to an Archive article published in 2008 on the BBC news website:

"......... Union membership has halved. Privatisation and the loss of manufacturing has emasculated the most powerful of the trade unions.

"One great achievement, according to Rodney Bickerstaffe, to rise from the ashes of defeat: the minimum wage, finally introduced in 1999.

"And the TUC struggles, still, to protect vulnerable workers, both migrant labour, and the hundreds of thousands of low-paid Britons."

Meanwhile, in 2011 The High Pay Commission reported that:

"the average wage has risen by around 300 per cent since 1980, while the highest paid company executives’ “stratospheric” pay increases have soared by more than 4,000 per cent over the same period.

Yet it is people on average pay asking for a pay increase and the unions representing them who are described as "greedy"!

anniebach As for your constant denouncements of trade unions, your interpretation of past events seems to have completely reversed since 2015 when you posted:

"Anniebach Sat 18-Jul-15 12:23:00
This Thatcherite government is hard at work making the Labour Party a minor party, change of boundaries - as did thatcher - attacking the unions - as did thatcher, we do not have a tory government we have a thatcher government, greed is good is back."

and:

"Anniebach Wed 05-Aug-15 10:20:53
So much is said on the winter of discontent during a labour government term, yes it was difficult but the whole country struggled with it. What of the years of discontent under the thatcher government ? Riots in the streets, rise in homeless , the divide between North and South , the whole country didn't struggle, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer . Wales , the North of England , Scotland suffered from high unemployment".

As someone who was on strike for almost five weeks while my wife and I had three young children during the Winter of Discontent (1979), I distinctly recall it was Government action against the unions that caused those industry wide disputes.

The middle east oil crisis of the mid seventies had caused inflation in the British economy. At that time pay and conditions in a huge swath of industries were negotiated through "wages councils" where the leading unions and employers would negotiate basic wages and conditions for almost all employees in the various industries they represented.

The Labour Government under prime minister James Calahan in an attempt to control inflation put pressure not to concede any meaningful pay increases on the employers engage in the wages councils. That action brought about for the first time in many years the collapse of those negotiations in many industries.

I worked in the road transport industry at that time and in many companies the on site union reps (known as Shop Stewards at that time) attempted to restart negotiations individually with leading employers. However, the regional and district committees which many of those leading stewards held elected positions on decided eventually that unity throughout the industry was essential if any success was to be achieved in the dispute. In that deadlock ensued and workplace gate meetings on the situation led to calls for " show of hands votes" on strike action which was unanimous in favour of such action in my company and many others throughout the industry.

After almost five weeks of strike action the employers gave way. The action was in no way seen by any involved in it as any attempt to bring down the Government, but purely as a conserved action to preserve our living standards at a time of inflation.

Such was the strength of unity in the strike that not one person attempted to cross the picket line at our company and many others during the whole period of the dispute.

Of course the right wing press of that time painted a very different picture to the above and still do in regards to the Winter of Discontent.

There was a very long drawn out strike in Birmingham recently when rubbish started piling up in the streets. People were very unhappy that the workers couldn't agree terms with the local authority. It caused such bad feeling and many of the streets really were filthy and smelly because bins were overflowing and black bags of rubbish were building up.

It reminded me of the bad old days when unions had the power to hold the country to ransom. Their demands had to be met, or else.

I haven't researched the ins and outs of the Birmingham bin strike, but it was very long lasting and it created an impact, but for the wrong reasons. I am not sure where the fault in not agreeing terms lay, but I think it has impacted on the Labour Council. I wonder if it will be reflected in local government elections?

I appreciate the Unions. Thank goodness workers have representation. I don't much like the way McCluskey seems to be a key Labour player though. He holds lots of cards and given Labour has reincarnated itself as a hard-left party, he is coming over as a fairly belligerent character, one not to be trusted with peaceful practice.

^Such was the strength of unity in the strike that not one person attempted to cross the picket line at our company and many others during the whole period of the dispute.

Of course the right wing press of that time painted a very different picture to the above and still do in regards to the Winter of Discontent^

And so do families of the por men, mainly factory workers, who didn't know from week to week where they stood or if they'd get paid, because of the power of the Unions. The wild cat strikes, one out, all out, called frequently back then, reduced my hard working Dad and many like him to tears. He had no income, and couldn't pay the rent.

He'd cycle to work, like lots of the men on the shop floor, and get to the factory gates to be met by a picket line of the most aggressive and active Union men, and told to turn around. To be a blackleg was dangerous, even if you desperately needed to work.

The Unions controlled the employers, tried to hold the country to ransom, but also acted very irresponsibly as far as the workforce was concerned. Many abused their powers, because they could.

THAT, Grandad, is the other side of the story.

Day6 in response to your posting today (30/04/18 @17:54) i and my family were one of those involved in a " one out all out" dispute". They were very hard times for all the family but workforces would very much "stand together" in those days and that attitude won that dispute. That action along with many more had maintained a far better and more equal society with good working conditions throughout the period of 1945-1980.

Perhaps Day6 you have never been involved in any industrial action, for it is not a mesure that anyone enters into lightly. However, as recent years have demonstrated such action prevented agency labour, zero hour contracts, the gig economy and as stated a much more equal soicety throughout Britain.

That is the real side of the story.

Eleothan, bored again I see. Now please'
, if you are to continue seeking out my posts from 1915 please also post the thread title, I was condemning the Thatcher years and I certaintly haven't changed my views in that period. Also do gets your facts correct, what I am against is Corbyn's plan to give unions more power .

So try to be less crafty please, thank you

I am not crafty, nor am I bored. Are you bored when you constantly post the same comments on Gransnet?

anniebach, as you state you are a long-standing member of the Labour party why do you not stand for election within the party and fight for change from within were it may have some effect.

You continually state you are against Jeremy Corbyn as leader and the influence the unions have in the party. Nothing was ever achieved by standing on the sidelines and objecting to matters on soical media sites such as this. Therefore, you could stand for election on your views at branch, district or constituency party legal within the party and as stated bring about change were it matters?

Apologies, should be level above not legal

Not at all bored when I post my comments Eleothan, they are my comments, I do not trawl back over several years to find another posters comments then take the comments out of context and repost them, sorry but this is rather similar to stalking , most unpleasant and as I said ,rather crafty .

You could simply have asked me my opinions on Thatcher reducing the powers of unions and my opinions on Corbyn wanting to give back too much power to the Unions

Grandad1943, stand for which elections ?

Perhaps Day6 you have never been involved in any industrial action, for it is not a mesure that anyone enters into lightly.

I have Grandad, many times and for pay rises. However, the strikes were always organised so our 'clients' weren't too inconvenienced and neither were they long drawn out. No wildcat strikes. Plenty of notice was given to all concerned.

A responsible union is a good union. I have also had the assistance of my union rep and local office when I had a work related problem.

I value the union movement.
However, McCluskye does not inspire confidence. Why do I get the feeling he is a militant man and power-hungry?