Should parents take their children on holiday in term time?

I agree with you Penstemmon. I've worked for a number of headteachers. Without a shadow of a doubt, the best ones have been those who understood what teaching is all about, have had a vision for education and good management skills. All of them have understood that learning is the core function of schools and have developed skills to make that happen. In secondary schools, headteachers are able to delegate some of those skills, such as accountancy, HR, site management etc, but they should still have the ultimate decision about change. If any change is likely to affect learning adversely, the headteacher must have the power to veto it.

I was always told that you don't call people 'she' but use their name Penstemmon - you obviously weren't. That's OK. I know what I think of that.

Schools take over so much family time now with the quantities of homework given from such a young age that it seems entirely reasonable that families should be able to recoup some of that precious family time by taking holidays when it fits in with their budget and work patterns.

Parents should retain their right to make reasoned decisions for their own children, based on their knowledge of those children and their own priorities. If that involves a holiday in term time, then so be it.

All our children had two weeks out of school to go to France every year, because of my OH's work patterns. We took the decision that they would learn just as much by being absorbed in another culture for two weeks as they would being in school - our children, our choice. They all have the happiest of memories of those holidays and learned so much; and they all have extensive higher education qualifications now, so lost nothing educationally.

Parents have to retain some rights to determine what they believe to be best for their children. The previous "two week rule" seemed to work well and should never have been abandoned.

GGMK2 What would be your radical actions to change the use of educational premises?

The detail is really not important. I could equally have suggested that we start using open university style teaching for secondary age, supported with smaller groups to build on that. I do apologise but having started the conversation I was not being able to continue it properly. I got tied up with things slightly overwhelming in everyday life and then a short bout of illness. However, I will try an explain.

We will have to think, what to some appears to be the unthinkable, if we are to have free education of any kind. As long as people keep voting in a government that will not tax sufficiently to pay our debts or support the services we expect for education, health, support in difficult times, and for our community needs, we will have to find ways to adapt these services and they may not look like ones we have grown up with and they may not be what we expect.

This government is cutting taxes and cutting services - nothing more, nothing less; so how do YOU propose to run these services with less and less funding - in this case particularly education. This is the future as 'the majority of the country' have decided it. These services are reaching or in some cases some have reached breaking point and that is on the breaking health of those working in them and they are leaving at a faster and faster pace and, in many cases not being replaced.

I was trying to suggest that we will not have a change of government; the Tories have convinced the 'majority' that the economy is in safe hands so we must, as I say, try and find alternative ways of educating our children and grandchildren, looking after our health and the care of our elderly and taking care of all the other public services that are - not that slowly - being withdrawn. I don't know how to make this clear in any way other than to shock. It seems to me that I can see huge swaths of our population walking slowly towards the edge of the cliff with the eyes of those under threat not to escape their fate for fear of something even worse - please tell me what could be worse?

It seems from your analysis, GG2 that the choice is between state and private. Do we just roll over and let the tories privatise everything?

It seems ironic really that the state has funded education for all children (apart from privately educated ones) right from the inception of compulsory schooling for all children. It was clearly seen that education was a public 'good' and that funding it from taxation was worthwhile. Yet in our rush to return to Victorian values and working practices the principle of free education which the Victorians supported is being lost.

This government feels as though it thinks that people who use state funded services are just a bl**dy nuisance, an undeserving nuisance at that...

"It seems from your analysis, GG2 that the choice is between state and private"

That is what we have at the moment Maizie and is absolutely not what I have just said - did you read it before you commented?

I'm sorry to disagree with you Gg2 but detail is important. I think many people underestimate how much planning goes into the organisation of secondary schools behind the scenes. At the heart of everything a school does must be learning - that's why they exist. It's not an easy job to allocate scarce resources (and resources will always be scarce in an economic sense) in a school with 1500+ pupils, all with potentially different needs.

IMHO one of the biggest problems we now have is politicians and academy chain CEOs' being paid six figure salaries, who don't actually understand the dynamics of a classroom. Something which looks good in theory doesn't work from a practical point of view.

Have you ever worked in a secondary school?

Sorry, GG2. I completely failed to follow your train of thought until I'd posted and then reread your posts

I know Maizie. I started know what I wanted to say and then got called away and had to dash backwards and forwards over the time, trying it keep up with my train of thought but I imagine everyone else had moved on by then. I probably should have stopped and started again However, life happens for all of us so I won't be the only one that happens to.

It only matters Daphne if that suggestion is one that you will feel solves our problems. All the suggestions I have made are ones I have heard elsewhere.

What I am saying is that we either have to think those things you find unthinkable and continue to treat children and young people as if they are steel going into a factory and the teachers are widget producers who have no professionalism so have to be monitored at every point - and who cares about how education actually works - or we have to think what seems to be unthinkable for many and get rid of the government that thinks all this is OK.

I am all for getting rid of a government that, through political choice, under funds the provision of high quality public services that I see as a sign of a truly civilised society. I am also not averse to thinking out of the box and doing things very differently!

However the greater use of school premises for different purposes is happening already ..it might be able to be increased but is not easy to make money in some of the antiquated buildings!

GGMk2 you implied in your previous posts that you had some expertise in premises or facilities management. Did I get that wrong?

The secondary state comprehensive my children attended always seems to have lights on in the late evening whenever I drive past. To my knowledge, the building is used as:

- a venue for evening classes
- sports training (the fitness suite and courts are open to the public, in addition to school teams
- an on-site farm (the sheep use part of the field, when the pupils have gone home)
- a cinema (shared use with the school)
- a purpose-built concert hall (shared with the school and built with a £10 million donation from a parent)
- a music academy (open to pupils from other schools)
- a nursery
- the town's football and hockey clubs
- art exhibitions
- Summer activity clubs and coaching
- children'sparties
- visiting speakers, including Shirley Williams, Germaine Greer and some others I've forgotten.

...and as a place for teenagers to learn.

There might be some more. Is there anything else you could suggest?

I don't see what any of this has to do with solving the problem of parents taking their children out of school to go on holiday.

At the beginning of the thread, I made two suggestions, one of which is almost certainly out of the question, because parents would object strongly.