Should parents take their children on holiday in term time?

I suppose it depends on whether you see the function of schools as educational or child minding . Teachers would prefer the educational function to be prioritised, whereas some parents think schools should be available for long hours of child care to fit in with their work patterns. Many schools do operate a longer day, with outside bodies running before- and after-school activities which the parents pay for. My GC go to after school club on 2 days a week to fit in with their parents' shifts. They quite enjoy it but wouldn't want to go every day, plus it's quite expensive. With budget cuts, and the shortage of teachers becoming more critical in many areas, it is likely some schools will have to shorten their hours of teaching, with pupils being sent home early , more subjects being cut etc. Many school are struggling to recruit teachers, I have heard of schools advertising nationally and receiving no applications for jobs such as Head of English, and having to recruit from overseas. It's not a rosy picture.

I think you are perhaps enured by your experience daphne. Many teachers don't want change and I can understand that because schools, in my experience, are some of the worst places when it come to introducing it. However, change can happen and must so that we can move forward. All you are offering is a negative response. We need to have more use made of technology and online learning too so that we can call upon the best in their subject.

I don't see why a teacher, for example, needs to take a homework class at the end of the day. You do not need teachers carrying out the pastoral side of schools and schools have, in my experience, already changed to none teaching staff in some areas. Teachers need to be marking and preparing in this time. With the sort of day I propose, with teaching at the core, some flexible working is possible for teachers.

You may believe the beginning of a new stage cannot be done in lecture form with the use of teachers being much more one to one following up but I don't think it is impossible if the will is there. I really don't believe if we came back in 100 years schools would look the same as they do now any more than they looked the same 100 years ago. We have to find some way to move forward rather than resisting every step of the way. What tends to happen is they younger workers (in any industry) know what is currently happening as normal and ignore, to a great extent, the complaints of the old that it 'isn't what it used to be'. They take if forward generation by generation but someone has to think outside the 'what it used to be' area.

I'm afraid your comment that I don't like change annoys me bit. As a teacher, I was always thinking up "bright" ideas which didn't turn out to be so bright after all.

Teachers don't take homework classes at the end of the day in most schools. The idea of lectures is a total non-starter in some subjects such as foreign languages. After just a few months of learning a language there is already a very wide attainment gap. Teaching a whole year group together would hold the best back and frustrate those with difficulties. By the age of 11, there is a seven year gap between the best and least able in English and maths.

I used to do timetabling and I can see the problems through a timetabler's eyes.

It's disappointing to see such an ageist attitude towards more experienced teachers. Unfortunately, schools are often run by inexperienced people with bright ideas, who don't actually realise that they're re-inventing the wheel. That's why so many teachers in their fifties (especially females) are "let go".

It sounds as though your experience of education is from the "consumer" side, gg2, and that you were one of the more intellectual pupils who went on to university and the lecture system? Lectures by one person to a large number of pupils who are not taking notes and of whom a fair proportion are not even following what is being said don't produce a lasting effect. A lecturer cannot keep a beady eye on those whose minds, even if their eyes appear to be looking in the right direction, are on non-intellectual matters.

If someone doesn't catch some point in the lecture, and they ask for it to be clarified, does the lecturer stop and explain it in more detail there and then, and ask questions that guide the pupil (and the rest of the class) to think about it understand better, or is it left to the pupil to remember to ask about it in "tutor group"? If they stop and explain, then the lecture is interrupted and becomes a lesson, and the "tutor group" is redundant. If they don't, but carry on as planned, that pupil won't understand what follows and will be left behind - and will stop listening.

Where would the next lecture start from, if some pupils needed more time to absorb all of the first? The lecturer doesn't know who is ready for the next step and who is not, and neither does the "tutor" unless he/she has been at the lecture and noticed the blank incomprehension on certain faces.

I missed a word out in the previous post, it should read "to think about it and understand better"

Sorry Norah

When our boys were at school the rule was an additional 10 days per academic year, over and above allocated school holidays. On two separate occasions we took them out of school for one week each time for a family holiday when they were at primary school.

I agree that the blanket ban is wrong and that discretion should be used taking into account the child's overall attendance record. I'm just relieved that we don't have children of school age anymore, as a responsible parent to say I'd beif I needed to get permission to take my children out of school, never mind being told what I could and could not put in their packed lunches, would be an understatement.

suzied I think this is the whole set: "I suppose it depends on whether you see the function of schools as educational or child minding."

Precisely that. I would want all children to enjoy school - to be educated happy adults.

Like most people I imagine my experience is fairly narrow. Limited to some work in education, (not as a teacher); relatives who are currently in education - teachers, lecturers and an odd Professor. Input into my knowledge also comes from other countries where family now live; I was on the receiving end years ago and had a deep interest when my children were young and now my GSs are.

Teachers are used to what they learned to do and what is current (although they, probably justifiably, whinge a lot about what is current). Not many have extensive comparative experience Elegran but many have just the same interest as the rest of us.

I think it would be unlikely that a manager would be trusted to put a company to rights, but I would have been interested in their ideas and input - bar the whinging of course - and I feel that teachers can offer just the same, should they choose to do so. If they don't life will move on and we will just hear more of the "in my day" comments we currently get from many old people.

"Many old people" are highly experienced in their particular area of work. A few of them will be negative about change and probably always have been. However, to dismiss collective experience can lead to the wheel being re-invented, time and time again.

And many old people just want to go back to 1957 Iam. I was not dismissing collective experience. Many does not mean all.

Please tell me Iam where Elegran has done anything other than offer reasons why my suggestions are not possible. Great Britain certainly did not become 'Great' (whenever that was) because of the criticisers. I may be a long way from what could be done but not a single positive idea was offered.

Constructive ideas get analysed and the weaknesses in them pointed out so that they can be altered. Doing that without coming to blows is constructive too.

Holidays in general are for the parent's benefit not the children who in most instances do not care when or where they go. It seems that an overseas holiday has now become part of the life cycle of the Brits along with manicures and waxing .
I think that schools have become stricter in enforcing the holiday policy as a result of quite a significant number of Asian families taking children out of schools for months at a time to go back to their country's of origin. The children return disadvantaged educationally with potentially reduced employment opportunities. I don't know if fining in these instances has made any difference, Fines could not just be applied to these families so I think that is why blanket fining was introduced.

I'm not sure that holidays are for the parents' benefit. My friend (teacher and mother) was adamant that all children need a holiday and was keen on helping children from deprived backgrounds getting away for breaks, even just a week in a caravan somewhere.

You haven't offered any Elegran. It is difficult if not impossible to analyse something that doesn't exist.

I have a couple of friends who are head of schools. One Junior and one Secondary. The first was meant to retire at Christmas but is still working three days a week as they couldn't find a new head. So she is working longer than she intended and the school has her for only three days a week. Things are very wrong in education and a bit of the dreaded blue sky thinking might just come up with some ideas; the cry that you can't know because you were never a teacher - as you said to me - is unlikely to offer anything positive.

Norah thousands of babies and children now eat breakfast in nurseries or breakfast clubs. My DD leaves for work at 7:40 and on Monday & Friday DGDs have breakfast at 7:00 and then go to a neighbour who walks them to school. On Tuesday and Thursday I arrive at DD for 7:30 and DGDs have a later breakfast with me & I drive them to school. On Wednesdays they also have a later breakfast as their dad goes to work later on a Wed so he can take them to school. They have a 'nanny' who picks them up M, W & F and takes them home and gives them tea. I do T & Th. Their mum gets home at 6:00. This pattern is the way of life for very many kids nowadays with a huge number arriving at day care/breakfast clubs by 7:30a.m.

Penstemmon I know lots of families who do as you posted. I understand that bit well, I help with my GC and GGC too. But schools doing breakfast - I didn't know.

joelsnan I disagree with your statement re Asian families and the conclusions you draw.
I have worked in areas with high Asian populations and you are correct that a family visit to India, Pakistan or Bangladesh often exceeded 2 weeks. I disagree that the children returned totally disadvantaged with reduced employment opportunities. The majority of families from the Indian sub-continent greatly appreciated the value of education and were very diligent in seeking advice on work/workbooks etc they should use to minimise the impact of th absence. Of course many of the children were bi or even tri-lingual. This is known to enhance brainpower!
The bigger problem we found was from children regularly missing Mondays/Fridays due to being ' down the caravan', days off because parent was not up in time to get child to school so did not bother at all, parents who wanted to go out with friends and would have to cut their day short to pick kids up so took them with them! Another popular reason for absence was 'It was his birthday so I had to take him out to choose a present' This pattern of absence, along with a lack of aspiration or value of school/education is what caused a clamp down on attendance. That and the fact it was an easy piece of data for governments to manipulate to show they had'made a difference'

gg2 It is a complex situation, with problems from several directions. You are quite right in saying that a change is needed, but there have been many changes over the last years and all that has been achieved has been to increase the amount of stress on teachers and pupils of being presented with a new set of curricula, tests or record-keeping chores to face just as they got their minds round the last lot.

If I could come up with anything useful I would! The fact that I can't doesn't prevent me pointing out things in your suggestions that I don't think would solve the question of pupils missing lessons, or would not use staff time any more effectively.

Yes, Penstemmon Casual "patterns of absence, along with a lack of aspiration or value of education" indeed.

When education was expensive and only for the well-to-do, it was valued. Those who couldn't afford it did menial or manual work. Reformers made great efforts to make literacy, numeracy, and knowledge of history and geography available to all. now education in this country is free, universal and, above all, compulsory - so it has become commonplace and undervalued, and even to be resisted and avoided. Funding it is compulsory, too, on taxpayers, many of whom would resent paying more for it, so successive governments try to spend less on it and demand more from those at the sharp end.

Elegran Education/school is now expected to deal with all society's shortcomings!

At one time schools were just about basic education and reinforcing society norms (manners etc) but now schools are on a hiding to nothing; expected by government to be substitute parents and policing parenting, parents resenting over interventions by school staff and a curriculum that is not really fit for 21c and not always fit to engage the wide range of kids because it is generally one size fits all!

The parents who cite cost of holidays as the reason they wish to take their children out of school are presenting a weak argument. Just go on the kind of holiday you can afford! Many families can never afford a holiday, let alone seeing a trip to Disney as some kind of human right.
Many then go on to blame the holiday companies for raising prices. Have they never heard of the law of supply and demand. They discount their prices out of the main holiday season to try to fill up half-empty accommodation and planes. They are businesses not charities and are obliged to try to make a profit for their shareholders. If they holidays were too expensive then nobody would be buying them would they.
In my view heads should be given discretion to grant term-time holidays to families who have a particular need - e.g. not everyone can take their annual leave in school holidays.
Anyone who has ever been in management where the employees have families will know there are always far more people who want to take leave in the school holidays than the rota can allow. Offices, hospitals, police forces, HM services etc cannot just allow everyone to disappear. Same applies to those who work in local tourism. So these people should be given some leeway by the heads.

There are some heads who stil do use their discretion when "allowing" a few days off in term time and then there are others who refuse to even discuss the reasons why. My DGD's 2 cousins (same age as DGD1and DGS) were "allowed" a week off before the end of term 2 summers ago,(no fines etc) and my DGD' s head refused. Ironically they were going in the same trip of 12 people arranged and paid for by the other grandparents . My son a daughter in law were each fined (they fine each parent?????) three times which was a lot of money to them. Needless to say we all had to "chip in" and despite asking I am yet to know where the money goes. I' pretty sure it doesn't go into the school which is ironic.