V.A.T, in school fees

No, it wasn't fiction. It makes me angry, too, daphne, when people say that.
When it finished there was silence for at least a couple of minutes. I've never heard such a silent audience before when they filed out. I think it was shock.
It was based on interviews with lots of people in similar situations.

Yes, there are gillybob. Their parents don't need benefit caps and cuts to tax credits. They need money to feed and clothe their own children. The parents sometimes need support, not to have SureStart centres closed and social worker numbers cut, etc etc. However, I still feel that universal free school meals aren't the answer.

What did you think of "i Daniel Blake". I saw it a few weeks ago at the cinema. It was too close to reality for me to say I actually enjoyed it, although there was some great writing and acting. People who said it was just fiction made me angry.

Aha! Thanks dj. I've actually tried to stay on-topic. There's some kind of consensus across a wide spectrum of political opinion that the days of special treatment for independent schools are numbered. It's ironic that Labour has picked up on one of Gove's ideas.

My concern is that if there's ever going to be a billion extra for education, it could be spent more effectively than on universal free meals and I've given reasons, with which people are free to disagree. I agree with Gaby Hinsliff in the link I just posted (and the other one I posted a couple of days ago).

JessM This is what happened to one independent school which converted to a free school:

www.batleynews.co.uk/news/education/batley-school-requires-improvement-1-5477146

Admittedly, it has now improved and just scraped "good" in its last inspection.

Many prep schools have closed over the last few years after applications to become free schools failed. Others have been taken over by bigger chains.

I have to agree with dj . That there are children going to bed tonight who are hungry.

Tonight I watched i Daniel Blake this country for all it's wealth and "do gooders" should be ashamed.

Do you have a vote in local elections next month, Annie?
If so, who are you going to vote for? A labour candidate led by a politician you so obviously despise?
Or another party that you disagree with, just so you can show him you despise him?
Good luck with that choice.
When I didn't vote for Labour it was because I positively agreed with the policies of the other party I voted for.

I was talking about generally on this thread, daphne, not you in particular.

I said you didn't go to party conferences .

No one can help the Labour party with Corbyn as leader, you are an intellegent woman, I wonder if truthfully you know this is so but cannot cope with admitting that like me you were wrong

Lots of children do starve. They are the ones whose parents go to food banks.
I never starved when I was at school, but I got free school meals. I was also given a pair of shoes by an English teacher in front of the rest of the class because she had noticed the state of my school shoes. I took them home but refused to wear them. My parents could not throw them away, though, and my sister wore them.
I am ashamed that this sort of thing is still happening over fifty years later.
Some of you are acting as if this is the only change that Corbyn has said he wants to make. That's just rubbish. It's just one improvement in his education policy.

"Nine boroughs have more than 20 per cent of primary and secondary pupils receiving free school meals and will lose money when the Government reforms the national funding formula, according to the Education Policy Institute.

Labour analysis says that in Tower Hamlets, where 36 per cent of children get free dinners, cuts of 2.7 per cent are proposed. Lambeth, Camden, Hackney and Tower Hamlets will see annual losses of 1.5 per cent to 2.8 per cent, despite having between 26 and 31 per cent of children on free school meals."

From the Evening Standard. (Osborne not doing his job properly.)
This is why free school meals for all primary school kids is a good idea. It's not just about you and your kids. It's about all kids.

Michael Gove, a perfect example of a leader yes?

This is Gaby Hinsliff's view, also in the Guardian:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/06/free-school-meals-everyone-prove-it-works-labour-policy

I didn't rubbish the whole idea dj. I wrote that I think charging VAT would be a good idea. Michael Wilshaw and Michael Gove agree with it too, so does that make you and me right wingers?

You are being more and more ridiculous, Annie.
When have I ever said I went to party conferences? You just make things up, and make yourself look vindictive.
You're welcome to it.
You started this thread asking what we thought about charging VAT on private school fees to pay for free school meals. You appear to have forgotten all about that in your zeal to put down anyone who supports the leadership of the Labour party.
Sorry, but it's people like you who are failing the party you profess to love. Your complaints are doing nothing to help it, and just seem petty and spiteful.

I agree with you suzied. I find it extremely patronising. My children were never hungry when I was unemployed. However, I could have done with some extra cash to buy shoes (I'm sure most parents know that teenage boys seem to grow a shoe size overnight), money for bus fares so that children could go to after-school clubs, money for my children to go to the cinema with friends, money so that we could go out for the day, money for the endless non-uniform days and charity events, etc etc. My children gave up asking me for money and sometimes lied to the school and their friends about why they couldn't go out or contribute to extra-curricular activities and stopped asking friends round, but they didn't starve.

Guess they charge what the market will stand. But some people have to live on that kind of money.
Where I used to live there were just 2 options for private at primary level. In one of them you could only get the uniform from a supplier who was a family member of the head. Such larks.
When Free Schools were being heavily promoted about 5 years ago, several struggling prep schools applied to become Free Schools, thus getting direct state funding instead of having to find paying customers. I wonder how they are faring.

I will not support a weak leader who supports militants and is supported by the communist party, political suicide is certain but you stay in denial.

Corbyn is certaintly getting us somewhere, into the wilderness yesrs again. And you replied in a question to me some time ago that would not give up you principles even if it meant lsbour would lose. Such betrayal of the party is not easily forgotten Jen, this is why I doubt your claims you were canvassing through the eighties, I accept you may have voted labour but you could not have csrried door knocking or attended party conferences, you would have experience the distrust and dislike of the far left by the voters,

You said earlier free school meals were a start, whrn is this going to happen Jen? When Corbyn is PM.

Strangely enough, Annie, those are my principles, too. Can you show me where I have said they are not?
Stopping Trident will pay for them, too.

I think if you look at my posts on here, you will see I support all those things you say. So does Corbyn.
However, all you do on here is attack Corbyn.
Perhaps you need to change tack and support the labour leader, rather than attacking all the time.
It's not getting you anywhere, is it?

No Jen, we have to win an election, this is the start , untill labour is in power there will be no - just a start for the poorest, you will not accept this Jen but it is a fact, we will not sgree, you have said your principles are more important than labour winning , I say sod principles, high principles do not put a roof over the heads of the homeless, build houses for families forced into private lets, , stop zero contracts

, these are my principles, give shelter to the homeless, homes for families, stop benefit cuts for the disabled , stop grammer schools and spend money on comprehensives, stop killing off the NHS, you worry about trident I worry about these vunerable people

I guess what bugs me is the assumption that poor=inadequate. Are there many families today that really can't afford to give their kids a bowl of porridge or weetabix in the morning? Yes there are inadequate parents who will give their kids a chocolate bar but is that just because they are poor? Help poor families but also target those who need extra support in parenting. feeding every child isn't the answer long term surely?

The Liberal Democrats may have made a serious mistake when they aquiesced in the Tory policy of raising tuition fees as part of the Coalition deal and there is no doubt that cost the party a lot of credibilty and support, but we should acknowledge that only happened in exchange for the pupil premium policy which has benefitted so many children. The smaller party in a coalition government inevitably gets blamed for the unpopular policies but never gets the credit for the good policies

It's a start, Annie. Better than nothing, I think.

There was never a time when the poorest were looked after, Barnados street children, workhouses, soup kitchens, just what has changed ? Street children are now neglected children, workhouses are now hostels and families living in one room, soup kitchens are now food banks . Free school meals will change all this ?

It's a strange assumption that this is the whole of the Labour party's education policy. It is just one part of it.
Because you don't agree with this does not mean the whole of the policy is rubbish - unless you are very right wing, of course.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/07/free-school-meals-universal-benefits-labour

You're right trisher. The argument for refusing entitlement to FSM for children of low-income working families was that parents received money through working tax credits, which could be used for food. However, working tax credit has now been cut and it's almost impossible for a working couple to receive it. The only parents who can now receive working tax credit are usually single parents on a very low income. Child tax credit has also been restricted to two children, so tough luck if you have an "accident" or two adults with more than two children from previous relationships get together.

Another point is that many schools use pupil premium funding for breakfast clubs, so poorer children already receive breakfast and lunch.

Although pupils whose parents work after being unemployed aren't eligible for free school meals, they are eligible for a free or subsidised breakfast for six years after their parents were unemployed. Stupidly, FSM funding can't be used for breakfast or homework clubs.

Pupil premium is paid to schools according to the number of children eligible for FSM. It's worth £1320 for primary school pupils and £935 for secondary school pupils and is payable for six years, even if the parents are no longer eligible for FSM, so a total of £6000+. Some schools have a third to a half of pupils in receipt of pupil premium. A few big comprehensives receive over a £1,000,000 extra.

Crucially, the schools don't have to spend the money only on the pupil premium pupils. Many spend the money on counsellors, mentors, behaviour coaches or family liaison teams, who can be accessed by all pupils, although their focus is on poorer pupils.

Pupil premium funding has enabled schools to set up breakfast clubs, which can be used by all pupils, although pupil premium pupils often receive their breakfast free or heavily subsidised. Breakfast clubs have proved to be effective in ensuring that pupils have eaten before lessons begin and have improved morning punctuality.

Ana School lunches are more palatable than they were, but I'm still not convinced they're necessarily healthy and I still think that any extra cash could be spent more effectively.