Ken Livingstone

What KL said
"Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."
Seems perfectly reasonable to me and not anti-semitic

But exactly what reason did Hitler give for supporting the Zionists fight for a homeland ?

Yep and me trish

So why the argument?

Could the argument be the Jews know exactly what Hitler said and we do not ?

There is (and it is difficult to say this without sounding anti-semitic) a strong desire by some to keep the information about what happened out of the news and one way to prevent things being talked about is to castigate the person who speaks out.

annie well that information must be available and that's what we need in order to make an informed judgement

Any Jewish grans got any idea?

People, anyone, Jewish or otherwise, can only know exactly what Hitler said about Zionism if there is hard evidence. If hard evidence (recorded or written at the time) is not available than we cannot know.

Whatever Hitler said is not what's at issue. It's what Ken Livingstone said that is at issue. I haven't heard any contradiction of what KL claims to have said. People seem just to be saying that what he claims he said is anti-semitic. If it is, I'd like someone to explain why it is because, as I understand it at the moment, it isn't.

A Jewish perspective on the speech.
capx.co/ken-livingstone-gets-the-history-wrong-on-anti-semitism-and-hitler/
It seems that Hitler just wanted the Jews out of Germany and not necessarily sent to Israel.
But it is a bit nit-picking in my opinion.

This was of course before the State of Israel existed which wasn't till 1948.
'The Haavara agreement was an agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist German Jews signed 25th August 1933. The agreement was finalised after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, The Anglo Palestine Bank, and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany. It was a major factor in making possible the migration of approximately 60.000 German Jews to Palestine in 1933-1939.'
This is an excerpt from the agreement, there is a lot more on Wikipedia.

Hmm. That article mainly seems to be stressing that you can't mention Hitler in the hearing of Jews at all.

KL's understanding of history may be wrong but what he said is not anti-Semitic. What he said is anti-Hitler.

So I still don't see what the fuss is about with regard to KL.

If KL has denied, as that article suggests, that there is no anti-semitism in the Labour Party, he would appear to be wrong about that too. In addition, he's a fool for opening his big mouth on the subject, though he within his rights to do and to say what he said without being pilloried.

I am not objecting in general to the pillorification (!) of anti-semitism. I'm just not convinced the current fuss is in the right tack or after the right person.

I am confused by the whole episode. A couple of weeks ago I was watching a news programme which was discussing this subject. There was a chap saying how awful KL was and really uptight about his remarks, but there was also an elderly Jewish gentleman who insisted that KL had said nothing incorrect or untruthful. He was quite laid back about the whole thing. I do not know who this man is but I saw him there at the news broadcast about the enquiry yesterday but no one asked him anything.

The whole thing is a very good distractioon from the current general Labour Party disasterousness.

Cynical? Who, me?

I don't really know what to make of it, was KL being mischievous? as any discussions on this subject is a red hot potato, so perhaps best avoided, On the other hand bearing in mind JC's reaction it could be a put up distraction as suggested by thatbags. Who knows!!

I'm not Jewish but live close to a large Jewish population and worked with many people from that population over a long period of time. Labour has been the party supported by the majority of Jewish people. Over several years, concerns have been expressed within the Jewish community locally about anti semitism in the Labour party. None of my Jewish friends are anti Palestinian and they're uncomfortable about the current government etc. This doesn't mean they don't have long memories about Germany in the 1930's which is when Hitler was (according to Ken) a Zionist.
How anyone can see Hitler's desire to rid Germany of its Jews as Zionist baffles me. 1938 saw Kristalnicht, and the arrival in the Uk of many Jewish children from Vienna, Germany etc - they were the lucky children with parents who had financial means and could get them out before the holocaust. One of my close friends lost every single member of his extended family, that experience isn't confined to only one person is it.
If Ken doesn't realise that he's offended many Jewish people, he lacks the emotional sensitivity gene. The survivors of the holocaust are now few but their families remain. The holocaust was directed at Roma people, those with disabilities, homosexuals, communists and other so called minority groups. I can't imagine Ken would feel comfortable making comments that could be seen as offensive towards those groups.
Tom Watson described him as drunk on his own infamy.

Great post Iam, fair and with knowledge of the emotions of not one Jew but a Jewish community.

Livingstone is on every tv channel , he is lapping up the attention. So it can be said he is defending himself, but by doing so he is putting his hurt pride before the anguish of people who have suffered pain none of us will know.

I live very close to a large Jewish community as well Iam64 and although I know some Jewish people I would hesitate to speak for them because in my experience they are like any other group of people and have many different attitudes and views about things. This idea that all Jewish people think and respond in one way is I think a real example of anti-semitism. Can you imagine anyone saying 'all the British think' or 'all the Catholics think' or even 'the majority think'.
Zionism meant the creation of a Jewish state and it was one reason for people moving to what was then Palestine. It isn't then a huge step to then seeing the movement of Jews forcibly out of Germany as Zionistic.
We know about what happened in Germany KL wasn't being a Holocaust denier or in any way condoning the actions of the Nazis. But using that horrific time to restrict the free speech of anyone is in my opinion completely unacceptable.

Incidentally my DS worked in the Jewish community very recently and was told before he stated by other Jewish people that he would not get local cooperation and they would not want to be involved in his work. He found them welcoming and cooperative, so even other Jewish people cannot accurately forecast the response of other Jews.

So the Jews knowing hitler just wanted them out of Germany but failed to do so and so gassed their people are wrong to be angry at claims Hitler supported Zionists? He did not, they wanted a homeland, he wanted rid of them

trashier, I hope my post didn't imply I was speaking on behalf of all Jewish people. I don't believe it did and I object to being accused of "real example of anti semitism". I spoke about friends within the local community, people I know well as friends or work colleagues, not about the whole community.

Of course 'other Jewish people" can't accurately forecast the response of other Jews. Many of us inaccurately predicted the outcome of the recent referendum. I'd hoped for Remain but a couple of weeks before the vote, it was clear to me that Leave would win. That's free speech which I have no objection to. I do object to Ken causing offence to many people.

Iam64 You said 'Labour has been the party supported by the majority of Jewish people'
Do you have figures for that?
You then raised the holocaust in an attempt to deflect the discussion. What has the referendum to do with this? You are saying many people have the same response to something I am pointing out you can't know that.
Anniebach you are rambling. People are perfectly entitled to be angry and to say so, what they are not entitled to do is to close down he discussion either by using emotive messages or by slating an individual. It happened. It should be talked about and not ignored. One attitude that could be taken is what might have happened had the British allowed the creation of a Jewish state would the Holocaust have been prevented?
Wiki
During World War I the British government issued the Balfour Declaration of 1917, stating that the British Government favors the establishment of national home for the Jewish people in Palestine. The British captured Jerusalem a month later. The League of Nations formally awarded Britain a mandate over Palestine in 1922. The land west of the Jordan River was under direct British administration until 1948, while the land east of the Jordan was a semi-autonomous region known as Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from the Hijaz, and gained independence in 1946. The 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine was a nationalist uprising by Palestinian Arabs against British colonial rule and mass Jewish immigration.

And you Trisher have to accept everyone is entitled to an opinion even if you disagree with them. Resorting to personal insults is so pathetic.

This thread is about Livingstone and what he said of hitler, so if there is any rambling it's coming from you , what has Palastinian Arabs to do with Hitler ?

Good post Iam64 I think you have summed it up very well.

Annie I know you are dyslexic so I will try to explain. The British administered Palestine where the Palestinian Arabs lived. They stated in 1917 that they favoured the establishment of a Jewish state, but when mass migration began there was an Arab uprising because of the numbers of Jews immigrating. This was in 1936-9 so the beginning of the Holocaust and the time KL was talking about, when Hitler was forcing Jews out of Germany. Could the Holocaust have been prevented or at least less people have died?
You can only have discussions like this if people raise these subjects.

I disagree Trisher, this is about Livingstone causing distress and anger to many Jews over his comments on hitler and Zionists, do not use the fact I an dyslectic to mock me or patronise me.