Ken Livingstone

Members of my family were made refugees as a result of the creation of the state of Israel and relatives dispersed to many different places. Lost their property,land & homes. But this poor treatment and aggression continues today but is totally marginalised & rarely gets press coverage. Children are abused by soldiers and held illegally in prisons. They are not Jewish.

One of my father's cousins was murdered in Palestine - shot in the back by a Zionist extremist. Should I be offended if somebody points out that the British didn't behave perfectly when they held the mandate in Palestine?

The term Zionism has changed in meaning over the years, but pre-war it referred to a group of people who wanted a Jewish homeland. It was a political stance and some of them weren't even Jewish. Some of those Zionists weren't that dissimilar from the IRA and Sinn Fein. Their main enemy at the time was Britain. If Corbyn and Livingstone had been politically active in the 1930s, they'd probably have invited them for tea.

It's an era which has been airbrushed out of history, because many countries want to cover up their own complicity.

I agree with you fitzy. Livingstone is no stranger to controversy and what he said was a very one-sided and distorted interpretation of the truth, so people should be used to him, but I don't think it's a reason to throw him out of the LP.

If this had been something brought up in a Radio 4 discussion with somebody like Julia Neuberger or Joan Bakewell, it would no doubt have been discussed civilly, dismissed and forgotten. If Ian Hislop had said it, some people would have just smiled and thought it was ridiculous. If Katie Hopkins or Jeremy Clarkson had said it, some people would no doubt have praised them for speaking their mind.

PS. Hitler didn't support the creation of Israel. He was against it, because he didn't want to give Jews a power base. He just wanted to get rid of the Jews, until the Wannsee Conference (when Hitler, according to Livingstone, went mad) and he didn't care much where they went. Palestine was still a British mandate and Jews were dispersed throughout the area.

Fitzy, trouble is this is not the first time he has caused distress to many/some Jews.

Yes, I can see this opens up other issues, but KL did step over the line here, which is the central point of the thread.

I can see some of that Fitzy54 but I think the issue also goes deeper, perhaps it is linked to 'survivor guilt' but there seems to have been an effort to restrict information about what happened just before the war and the Holocaust and to stop people talking about this. There was for example the censoring of the play "Perdition" at the Royal Court. If Hitler is the most hated man for Jews I suppose finding out that there may have been some collusion between him and Jewish leaders would be devastating.

Trisher I can see where you are coming from but there is a real issue with what he said, and the problem is more than KL using clumsy language. There are different views around Zionism among Jewish people. However, Hitler is pretty much universally detested by all Jews, detested to a degree most non-jews can never experience. Added to that many Jews believe that the establishment of Israel is not just a good thing but a quite marvellous achievement for a people who have suffered worldwide discrimination over not just centuries but millennia. Finally, it is quite clear that Hitler did not in any any way support the creation of Israel for any reason other than as a dumping ground for exiled German Jews. For KL to in any way suggest that the most hated man in Jewish history was in any sense of the expression a true Zionist was more than offensive, it was an offensive distortion of the truth, so is closer to fake news than an example of a man exercising his right to freedom of speech. Having said that I don't see this as a reason to throw him out of the party. He has taken a lot of stick, rightly so, but my take would be leave it at that.

I have never said all Jews, I have said many Jews, I know some are deeply hurt because I have been told by a Rhabbi and by a family who live in a strong Jewish community .

Some are deeply hurt and angry, you dismiss this as being offended

It is far more insensitive to constantly insist that you know how all Jews feel. It is in fact anti-semitic, as I said before Jews are as different and diverse in their views as any other group of people.

Yet you are speaking for Jews Trasher

Your far left loyalty has made you insensitive to people's emotions in my opinion.

The truth is not watered down. The facts remain and have been extensively discussed and links provided. It is a question of interpretation. l don't understand what gives you the right to speak for Jews Anniebach as I have said before some were offended, some weren't. To regard them as having only one view about this is unacceptable. To make it simple it's as if I said all Welsh people can sing.

So all the Jews who are angered and distressed are in politics?

As to you saying something which causes distress to another, it's your choice and so your fault for causing the hurt Trisha

I thunk to say Jews are offended is watering down the truth, perhaps if your parents, grandparents, siblings and extended family had been murdered your feelings would be deeper than offended.

If I am upset and angry about someone saying something is that my problem or theirs? I see no point in asking someone to apologise and withdraw remarks just because someone is offended. In fact there as always been a long tradition in British politics of trading insults. Had he said something which really was anti-semitic or racist I could understand the suspension, he didn't and it wasn't. But the Labour Party has always had a tense relationship with KL anyway.

His interpretation has caused anger and distress but that doesn't matter ?

Why? For a start, Hitler didn't "support" Zionism. Livingstone was correct about stating some facts, which many people prefer to forget, but his interpretation and logic were faulty.

Trump doesn't have anything to do with it!!

Obama restricted immigration.

For goodness' sake, it was intended to be satirical, as was Naz Shah's comment, in the grand old tradition of British satire.

I don't suppose the fact that Shah is a Muslim has anything to do with it .

If people really thought it was an "outburst" we really are becoming a nation of snowflakes.

If Livingston is expelled he is confident he will win in the courts, here we go again,

And I am sure the Jews are and were aware if Hitlers hatred of Jews, little wonder many Jews are angered and distressed to hear claims he supported Zionists untill he went mad.

Yes Daphne I saw it, but long before Trump and his anti immigrant rant . Was Obama anti immigrant ?

Yes, he did, although he backed away from the whole idea in about 1937 when he realised that a hub was being created for a new Jewish state.

At the time, Palestine was a British mandate. The British had been lukewarm about creating a Jewish state. Hitler thought he was offloading Jews to a British colony.

anniebach If you're referring to Naz Shah's Facebook post, did you actually see it? It had originally been posted by a satirical Jewish website and was originally intended as a satirical dig at America for not wanting to accept immigrants. The DM described it as an "anti-semitic outburst" - I don't think so!

I would say that Hitler was neither for or against Zionism. He just used the movement as another way of ridding Germany of some Jews.
I should imagine he despised Zionist members as much as he despised all Jews.

Thank you Penstemmon and others for the information about the Havaara agreement. I couldn't understand what the fuss was about. Either Hitler was or was not in favour of Zionism and this is a matter or verifiable record. Not a sign of anti-semitism to mention it surely?

I think you are right llovecheese, now he is just a party member and suppose he finds this difficult after being London Msyor, plus the media are aware of his need to still be considered a politician and play on this need, similar with George Galloway

I suppose it's a bit like the "Grandee or has been" debate. People finding it hard to come to terms with their loss of status, and clinging on to the limelight.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/former-israeli-security-chiefs-warn-of-tyranny interesting article on "freedom of speech" in Israel.