Brexit 5

Going it alone as a sovereign nation is not a bygone thing Azie and many nations do it. We are still part of Europe and part of Nato.

Which countries have split from a bigger group and are better than they were in that group?

We were not always in it you know, and did rule ourselves for a bit ( a lot) and it is quite likely there will be other breakaways on the horizon from the EU.

You didn't answer the question.
You should change your name to rosetintedglasses, looking back to a glorious past when we ruled the empire.

Why, I wonder, did taking up the EU flag create more jobs in British government, and yet decision making for this country was made in Bruxelles. British politicians such as Mr Bliar had very little decision making other than to pass on directives from the EU Parliament. And then laid blame at this door for all financial troubles.

Oh dear, back to the old stereotype of the Leave voter as narrow-minded Nationalist who harks back the glorious days of the past. I remember having that one levelled at those wishing to Keep The Pound back in 1995, mainly by far-sighted Liberal Democrats who said we must join the Eurozone or have our economy left behind. Nothing could have been further from the truth, both in the accusation or the outcome.

I saw The Guardian were touting the same sort of stereotype going into the Referendum. It makes me very angry that some people who, quite rightly, would condemn the use of stereotypes against other groups seem happy to use them against Leavers.

I think the question of countries leaving bigger groups might be usefully put to Scottish Nationalists. If we look to history, how about the USA leaving the British Empire or, indeed, any relevant Commonwealth countries who have gone off on their own? Of course, New Zealand didn't so much go off on its own as, economically, were set loose by the UK when we joined the EEC.

I would not argue that leaving the EU implies a level of risk but so does staying in because it is headed to an ever-closer Union which implies further loss of sovereignty. Many of my friends who voted Leave (and I have as many who didn't) did so because of the sovereignty issue and a vision of the future, not the past.

Perhaps DJen you should think about changing yours to Rudejen since you make every remark so personal.Am sure that HQ would be happy to oblige you.

exactly Cunco some are happy to trot out these stereotypical
remarks at every opportunity.It shows very little understanding, except for their own point of view.

That's interesting, CelticRose, because this guy reckons that the 1997 - 2010 Labour governments passed far too many laws and if you look at his examples they didn't emanate from the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/philipjohnston/7482778/Bad-Laws-Labour-has-clowned-around-with-our-freedom.html

But of course, you might argue that the article is just a bit of right wing polemic (which is true) and so not to be taken seriously.

It might be worth looking at this somewhat more considered view of the influence of the EU on our legislation. Fact is, no-one can say with any certainty just how much our laws are influenced/driven by EU law.

fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

Thanks MaizieD, that last link gives a full and balanced picture which I'm not going to precis, suffice to say that there's a lot of room for exaggeration regarding EU input into British law. As ever, it's complicated and the way it is interpreted and reported relates to the intent of the reporter!

It's fair enough to complain about stereotyping but that works both ways and I'm pretty tired of seeing Remoaner being flung about as an insult along with other insults when people are quite rightly asking questions or debating issues.
I have only just noticed Cunco that you are bloke (!) which explains why you didn't, to my relief, respond tartly to my querying who others were in your earlier post about us attempting to educate ourselves as part of the process of debating. Probably this is a cat amongst the pigeons comment that'll get me into trouble but men seem to have a different way of needling the jugular!!

Why does Theresa May still insist on not showing her cards? Every other EU country knows what cards she has.

I noticed today that Johnson has told four EU ambassadors in a private meeting that he supports free movement of people in the EU!
What was Brexit all about?
Still hedging his bets.

I am sure, roses, if someone else had written that and put a smiley face after it, you wouldn't have been upset by it.

Fight hotting up between the Tories and the issue of the single market. Will be seeing a lot of this.

Interested in May's version of Christianity. Wonder what she thinks "Suffer little children" means?

The word Sovereign implies that it is a county run by a monarch who rules absolutely. Of course now it seems to mean something else. But what?
That parliament acts like a monarch, I assume. This is surely a very outdated concept. (and there have been more than a few dodgy monarchs in our history) Since WW2 countries have co-operated and agreed standards that they will adhere to, in the interests of international cooperation and the avoidance of war etc etc
Should we leave the United Nations, the Commonwealth and the International Criminal Court perhaps? What about the Geneva Convention? And all the other treaties we have signed.
Was it Boris Johnson in his days as a joke EU correspondant who first used the S word in this context? Or was it the delightful NF?
Has anyone yet written some sort of satirical play based on a 16th Century monarch who fancied splitting the Uk off from the Catholic Church. Now that was an issue of "sovereignty"!

No, it doesn't mean that JessM. The dictionary definition of 'sovereignty' is:

1. supreme power or authority.
"the sovereignty of Parliament"

2. the authority of a state to govern itself or another state.
"national sovereignty"

3. a self-governing state.

That's what Jess said, that parliament acts like the monarch and has supreme sovereignty.

There's no mention of a monarch in the dictionary definition.

So what do you think sovereign means?

I was talking about 'sovereignty' in relation to Brexit. Which is what this thread is about, of course...

My definition says supreme power, especially that yielded by a monarch.
Depends on your dictionary, doesn't it?

So what is your definition then Ana?
Very entertaining news from David Davis, that we could leave the EU but still end up paying fir access to the single market. What a surprise.
democracy.anglesey.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=120&MId=2950&Ver=4&LLL=0

www.indy100.com/article/daily-mail-report-financial-fear-brexit-decline-print-sales-7450056

Daily Mail is worried that Brexit means it will lose money! Who'd have thought it?

Has this been on before?

twitter.com/DuncanCastles/status/798823837114564613/photo/1

Was that the right link, Jess?

I think the last link you posted has been seen before, dj. I believe that some Gnetters were not amused...

Maybe they'll think differently this time, Maizie....if they look at it.
I knew I'd seen it before, but wasn't sure if it was on another forum.