Brexit 5

daphedill; This article from The Guardian, not the Telegraph, may give a clue to why many of us are sceptical whatever is said about the EU's democratic structure.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/27/eu-democratic-bandwagon-juncker-president-wanted

As you rightly say, Junker is supposed to be an administrator but he sometimes acts like a dictator when diplomacy is required. Both Britain and the EU would be better off negotiating an amicable divorce but, not for the first time, the EU is putting politics above economics and making a mistake on both.

I don't know whether leaving the EU will bring people together or drive them further apart. I do fear an Election over Parliament's effective rejection of the Referendum result would risk greater extremism and produce a result that the vaste majority of Remain and Leave would not want.

We can agree that more equality and longer term strategies would be a good thing, something we have lacked for 20 years, perhaps because the EU was the long-term strategy.

Pretty good this. This comment from the @FT comments page has gone viral because it nails the remainer/leaver Brexit row.

"So, this is how the debate reads so far. I kid you not, it’s practically verbatim:

Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers… left) “WTF?”

Leavers “We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it”

Remainers “But it’s not possible!”

Leavers “The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.”

Remainers “And do what exactly?”

Leavers “Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it”

Remainers “But it’s not possible!”

Leavers “Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.”

Remainers “But even you don’t know how!”

Leavers “That’s your problem, we’ve done our bit and voted, we’re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.”

Remainers “Shouldn’t you do it?”

Leavers “It’s not up to us to work out the detail, it’s up to you experts.”

Remainers “I thought you’d had enough of experts”

Leavers “Remain experts.”

Remainers “There are no Leave experts”

Leavers “Then you’ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don’t want, we’ll eat you alive.”

Remainers “But you don’t know what you want!”

Leavers “We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.”

Remainers “You’re delusional.”

Leavers “We’re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn’t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don’t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They’re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.”

I take it your sympathies lie with the Remain voters, Wilma.

It does, but I have accepted the situation. I just can't see what's going on and that's what concerns me. I realise I am not alone in this.

Philip Hammond has just announced the Autumn Statement and the future fills me with dread. As someone in their 50s with a degenerative disease that leaves me unable to work, I worry about growing old now. Our plans for retirement were already modest and I was always the glass half full to my DH's glass half empty. Don't know what else to say.

Ana
Wilma nice to see you posting again, haven't noticed your comments for ages?

Didn't expect' massive 'economic growth ,happy with steady sustained growth after some initial bumps along the way but despite dire predictions there have been many positives since the referendum,companies continuing comittment to invest.Understand that growth is predicted to be down next year,still I believe on a par with Germany and better than France and Italy.No immediate recession or financial meltdown.
Tourism,construction and many other industries reporting very healthy increases.etc.etc.Trade deals to be done globally.
Dont expect 'no ' migration.Want controlled immigration that extends the skills and talents coming into the country,whilst offering asylum to those in genuine need,whilst recognising our infrastructure and NHS and schools etc have finite resources.
Don't expect a 'revival' in British industry in the old traditional sense, more a continuing expansion of our newer creative and innovative industries that are all flourishing such as the film industry,creative and tech business to name a few. Growth in smaller ,entrepreneurial startups.Seen plenty of evidence of that myself at local business networking meet ups.
Live in a former coal mining area and never once expected the pits would open up again .Prefer coffee to tea.Brought up C of E ,don't attend church but realise vicars have moved with the times and often cover services in more than one parish. No village greens around here ,and think bunting is twee.And go back to the days of the Empire.No thanks.
Didn't expect negotiations and extracating ourselves the EU to happen 'quickly' after 40 years,but constantly being told however how difficult they are going to make it for us only makes me regret we ever got involved in the first place.
Very modest pension and plans for retirement here also,but very appreciative both in good health so far, although having just lost a close relative to cancer very suddenly,take nothing for granted.

Well said, Washerwoman.

The press is reporting that Boris Johnson "insulted" Italy and Italians when he said that if Britain doesn't get a decent trading deal with Italy, then Italy will sell less prosecco to Brits. What's insulting about that? It looks like common sense to me.

The Italian he said it to is reported to have retorted in kind. Sounds like perfectly normal bargaining tactics from both sides to me.

Until someone can explain what the insult was, anyhow.

I only made that post because there seems to be a tendency to take offence at everything Brexiters do or say which seems very childish. It's politics. Of course people will feel rubbed up the wrong way when things aren't going the way they want.

Although, as washerwoman has said, disaster hasn't happened yet.

Doesn't want much, either, does she?
Whenever anyone says it will take at least ten years, leavers throw up their hands in horror. They want their money back now.

Washerwoman, how do you expect all that to be done?

Which leavers 'throw up their hands in horror' durhamjen? And who in their right mind believes there's any money coming back?

Remainers really do underestimate the intelligence of most Leave voters.

roses I have been lurking for a while instead of posting because I was spending too much time on here.

I don't think all Brexiters are idiots, far from it. But I do think many people don't realise that their lives will not improve any time soon, that just the opposite will happen. The government (of any colour) will struggle to govern as it manages leaving the EU and life outside of the it. The number of JAMs will grow and the government will throw them crumbs as it battles on. This retirement generation will be the last to experience the level of security (many struggle now).

Dire predictions? Yes, and that's before Article 50 has been triggered. People should remember that the UK is still one of the wealthiest countries in the world and that it is a political choice how much is spent on public services of any kind.

Wilma.Firstly I'm sorry you have a degenerative condition. That's enough to worry about.I also understand many people are still very angry and upset about the vote of June 23rd,and will remain so to the point it seems they would rather sabotage any chance of moving forward with any sort of positivity and disparage any good news ,and there has been plenty.I hasten to add I'm not saying that's you.But it certainly applies to some posters on here.
DJ how do expect all what to be done ?A lot of it is already happening.Expanding new industries,starting to address misuse of our NHS by health tourists and no doubt a lot of groundwork going on reguarding trade negotiations .And I will reitterate I never expected withdrawal from the EU to happen in a matter of months,but in years so no hands up in horror here either..But longer post wouldn't suffice or satisfy so I will pass on that.Got a gripping TV prog to watch.Plus being referred to as 'she' sounds rather rude .Or at least that's what my mum lead me to believe.'who's she ?the cats mother'(never really understood that one ?!)

So its the foreign tourists who are wrecking the NHS now. Always someone else to blame. WE all carry a card ensuring us that if taken ill we will be cared for medically in the EU.All the westen health services act for everyone in emergencies.
Leaving the EU is the most serious thing that the UK has done in years.
I cam imagine that in 20 year time someone will get the idea to join together for prosperity and defence.

And now the EU reprsentatives are not friendly.
We are not in the EU to be friendly but to get things done and organised. They are just doing their job and due to Brexit they have even more to do. We could be making progress in other directions if this blessed Brexit hadn't happened. We will need all our wits about us with Trump in place in the White House without having to spend hours and hours sorting out the nitty gritty of the Uk leaving. I hope the EU send them a bill for the immense costs of this mountain of legal work

Do you live in the UK, MargaretX?

No, Margaret lives in Germany I believe.So will not be a tax payer paying a bill for anything.

Wilma we all spend more time than we should on here!
washerwoman I agree with your posts.

Roses I live in France and pay as much income tax in UK as when we still lived there - taken at source and we have no choice - plus we pay about the same in France as well. - so you cannot be at all sure what taxes people are paying and where unless they tell you!

I agree, but Margaret has told us that she has lived in Germany for a long time, so I assume not a tax payer, but could be wrong.I also assumed that you lived in Wales, so was wrong about that too.

You are very naughty and should be called Frenchwife

Washerwoman thanks for your good wishes. I'm sure if we met in person we could have a reasonable discussion about the subject. I am not angry at the result, disappointed yes, but not angry. However, I am angry at David Cameron and the Tory party for offering a referendum expecting a remain result and which, in reality was intended to quieten the constant party infighting over the EU. I would rather we renegotiated our position from within the EU (even if it was a difficult process), rather than be in the current situation. The problem as you've mentioned, is that every tiny piece of news (or speculation) is disected by both sides. The result is the level of conflict completely muddies the waters and our chances of knowing the truth.

I have two older friends who vote in elections (for the same party every time), but know very little about current events other than the headlines. They've always told me it's because apart from voting, everything else is out of their control, so there's no point in worrying or complaining. Maybe they're right.

^ And who in their right mind believes there's any money coming back?^

Nobody believed the bus then?

Well that's good because we appear to be headed for a £122bn hole in our public finances.

Maybe those who voted leave should offer to pay more tax to foot the Brexit bill.

Health tourism is a distraction topic. The government have no idea how many "health tourists" there are, because hospitals are not checking. If everyone was checked there would have to be an army of trained administrators who were trained to assess identity documents. Anyone who works in recruitment will tell you that this is not easy, as you have to be able to understand all the different types of visa and what they entitle people to. As Mark Porter said, the systems are in place if Trusts feel there might be a significant problem in their area.
So utter distraction from the fact that we were in economic hot water before the delusional vote to leave the EU. Little gem from Twitter yesterday - the civil service are completely stumped about the legal transition between our current laws and post brevet law and and are desperately seeking legal advisors to help them. More cost then.

Ooh sorry - they won't need to pay more tax as we will be saving £350m a week , oh but that's going to the NHS isn't it? ( there's another pig flying by...)