DWP

I know only too well.

So who are you calling liars, Galen?
Which are patently untrue?

Without knowing the people or the context, it's impossible to say whether all the people who wrote those comments could do some work.

The descriptor about watching television is relevant to depression. One of the typical symptoms of depression is not being able to concentrate at all. That doesn't mean that somebody who can watch TV for an hour is not suffering from depression, but if they can't, it's certainly a sign that they could be suffering from some form of mental illness.

The assessment is seriously flawed and does come up with some stupid results. Unfortunately, the tick box method also means that some people get to understand the assessment and work it to their advantage. When I was doing my (so called) 'courses', there was quite a bit of discussion about assessments and there were a few people who loved to give 'hints' about answering the questions. One of those was never to admit that you ever watched a whole TV programme.

I would like to know how much assessments and work programme providers cost. I know that enquiries have shown that they are very poor value for money. I would seriously like the system to be scrapped and the whole system brought back in house with people assigned genuine mentors.

They get you off ESA because it saves them money and no other reason. It's nothing to do with the needs of the sick person.

I know and that's exactly what needs to change.

If you read the discussion document linked at he beginning of this thread, the blurb says that the system needs to change to be more supportive, but the devil is in the detail and needs a culture change and long-term investment. I'm not holding my breath.

Hard hat on here, but I don't think ESA should continue in its current form, because it creates a perverse incentive to remain ill and not to work. The truly long-term ill should get DLA, which could be increased to compensate for the loss of ESA.

From April next year ESA in the WRAG group is going to be cut by $30 so it is equal to JSA, so there will be no incentive.

What's the point in making more people poorer? Do we not have enough people in poverty?
The government admits that people have died after being sanctioned. They know that the number of families relying on foodbanks has risen dramatically on their watch.
What do they want? More people to die so it reduces the welfare bill?

I have the read the document. It's all about self esteem and opportunity. Do you really think it will work that way? We've seen how the sick and disabled are treated in this country.

I'm long term sick...incurable. I will never be able to hold down a job no matter how 'stress free' because every job comes with some stress even if it's only getting there on time. However I don't have self esteem issues about being out of work because I've accepted it's an illness that I can challenge and win battles against but will never win the war. What I have to do is make the most of the life I can lead.

You talk about the truly long term sick. Who will decide that? They will tell us it's for our own good then cut our benefits just like they plan to do with the WRAG group. How does making ill people poorer help any of them?

www.disabilitynewsservice.com/mind-boss-lies-to-protesters-over-dwp-contracts/

He was offered 30 pieces of silver when he went past the line, but refused to take them.

Have you seen this, vampire?

www.disabilitynewsservice.com/ministers-set-to-force-work-related-activity-on-everyone-in-esa-support-group/

There'll be a demo against it, no doubt. We'll have to look out for it.

'It comes only a month after the new work and pensions secretary, Damian Green, secured widespread praise for announcing an end to repeat assessments for those on ESA with “the most severe, lifetime conditions”.

He said then that the government would “sweep away unnecessary stress and bureaucracy which weigh them down” and that “if someone has a disease which can only get worse, making them turn up for repeated appointments to claim what they need is pointless bureaucratic nonsense”.

Now Green (pictured, announcing some details of the green paper to MPs) appears to have decided that the same group of people should be forced into repeated contact with a “work coach”, or lose some of their benefits.'

They lied again.

DJ re your query yesterday. The comment on ' shoelaces =0 points is rubbish as there is no descriptor relating to shoe laces.
The ability to watch a tv programme is an example used to help estimate the descriptor relating to 'remaining at a work station'.
Please note I am not saying the esa test is right or fair. I am only stating what the law says

@vampirequeen

No, I don't, but I've also seen first hand how it works.

I was unemployed for two years after a breakdown. I didn't claim ESA, although I could have done, but I was sent on some of the courses that ESA claimants attend and obviously I chatted to the other participants.

Obviously there are some people who are far too ill to work ever again. However, it really isn't as black and white as being too ill to work or not too ill. There are many people who could work for a few hours a week, but the system doesn't let them. Many of them actually do want to work. I did, but knew I wasn't well enough to work full-time and not in my previous job. I needed the opportunity to get my confidence back and, ideally, funding to retrain.

Once people admit that they are working a few hours, they fall into a trap. They are considered fit to work and lose their ESA, which is worth about £40(?) a week. That's a considerable amount of money to people living on the edge and, not surprisingly, they don't want to lose it, especially as they will have almost the amount they earn deducted.

There are people who play the system and know exactly what to say at assessments. After a while, they lose the will to look for work and it becomes a vicious circle.

This is where the idea of a minimum citizen's wage would work well, because people could keep whatever they earned on top of any basic wage. That would mean that they could do a few hours babysitting, delivering leaflets, doing data entry at home or whatever. There are loads of little jobs around which don't pay enough to live on, but would give people with limited capability to work some extra cash.

www.debbieabrahams.org.uk/2016/we-must-act-to-make-sure-that-there-are-no-more-daniel-blakes

Galen, lots of the descriptors are given as examples.
Someone could use the tying shoe laces in either manual dexterity or in learning a simple task.

Activity 9: Learning tasks

Descriptors:
Cannot learn how to complete a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.

Setting the alarm clock was just an example. Tying shoe laces could be another.

By the way, I have just had to reset the alarm on my radio because I pressed the wrong button this morning.
I had to find the book to tell me what to do.

There's a difference between somebody who can't learn how to set an alarm clock and somebody who doesn't have the mobility to do it. The latter don't necessarily have a cognitive impairment or mental disorder.

I haven't seen Daniel Blake yet, but I know what it's about.

Many people do go back to work after heart attacks. What they need is understanding from the Jobcentre staff and employers. They will need help for a while and the system needs to be more transparent and supportive, but very often they will then carry on as before. They need the support to make sure they don't lose their home or job.

I'd be interested to know what changes Debbie Abrahams is proposing. I agree the system needs wholesale change, but I wonder what she means.

Sorry, don't understand.
Both are important, surely.
Actually, it's picking up a pound coin that's in physical, not tying your shoe laces

It could also be in this.

Activity 13: Initiating and completing personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks)

Descriptor:
(a) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 sequential personal actions.
15 Points
(b) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions for the majority of the time.
9 Points
(c) Frequently cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions.

The alarm clock is a mental descriptor not a physical one
The descriptors for manual dexterity are pressing buttons turning pages in a book etc. No shoelaces, but in a previous benefit (before esa) there was a descriptor relating to tying a bow. It was not carried forward into eas

Somebody who can't learn to set an alarm clock or tie shoelaces is likely to have a severe learning difficulty. No matter how many aids are provided, it is unlikely that somebody who can't learn a simple task will ever be able to do it. There's a big difference between somebody with impaired mental function and somebody with arthritis for example. Presumably 'Activity 13' is a way of assessing cognitive ability not manual dexterity.

By the way, I would have scored 15 points when I was at my most ill. I couldn't remember my brushing teeth and washing face routine and I had to relearn how to make a cup of tea. Sometimes I would sit on the kitchen floor in tears, because I couldn't remember what to do. However, it was temporary and I did gradually improve after a few months, although I still have to rely on lists much of the time. I still find it difficult to read a whole book or watch a long TV programme. It has never occurred to me that I am incapable of any work.

Heaven knows how many points I'd score. I'd get 15 straight off for mobility

And most people are like you, daphne and they want to work.
My husband quite often used to say he could do things, forgetting that it was me who stopped him falling over when he tried. It was me that drove him to places, and it was me that stopped him losing his balance on the bus when the driver did not wait for him to sit down.

'The Department for Work and Pensions is considering forcing all sick and disabled people on out-of-work disability benefits to take part in “mandatory” activity, its new green paper has revealed.

The suggestion of compulsory activity is revealed in a single line of the 92-page work, health and disability green paper, published this week.

Such a change would mean that all people on out-of-work disability benefits – even those who are terminally-ill or have the very highest support needs – would have to stay in regular touch with their local jobcentre or risk having their benefits sanctioned.'

If this gets passed, you'll get your way. Either that or a lot more suicides.

The list is for WCA which started in 2007.
There was one for tying shoelaces then because I remember my husband being asked if he could tie his own laces. He said he only used velcro since he fell off the ladder.

Have you seen "I, Daniel Blake"?
Definitely more demeaning now.

DJ are you referring to me when you say 'you'll get your way?