Cameron - friend of Muslim women?

Wilma please don't link my response to not wishing to have immigration. You have completely misunderstood my response. I understand this thread to be about teaching English to immigrants and that is all. To extrapolate all that from my reply is either deliberately provocative or a lack of understanding.

I think that anyone who chooses to move to this country should integrate and that requires they learn our language. I do not think we should pay for it when there are so many more important issues to spend the money on. If someone has to work or pay for something they are far more likely to appreciate it. For example, I passed my driving test so easily because it was mainly sitting in traffic and I do not appreciate driving at all. DH took a few attempts and he appreciates it.

"Little Englander" is it possible that you could stop using this derogatory racist expression Anniebach. You accuse others of disliking Muslims but how thinly you veil your dislike of the English, based on what a few that don't behave well, which ironically is what you accuse others of.

durham I am one who does not think we should pay for English lessons for immigrants and I have a good reason, DS lived in 2 countries and learned their language from his friends and colleagues. In both cases his work environment was English so he didn't need to for work. He did so in order to integrate. I appreciate that writing a language may need formal instruction but not speaking it.

There are many people who come to the UK to live and who learn our language without depending upon the rest of us to pay for the tuition.

No, I am not hiding a 'dislike for Muslims', I do dislike one and like another very much, my dentist. He is probably the only Muslim dentist where I live so I could easily choose another one. We share quite a lot of family values.

Annie Muslim women have been targeted because

1) certain Muslim wives are unable to discuss symptoms with their GPs, talk to their child's teacher etc. without the aid if an interpreter and
2) keeping their wives isolated is a deliberate tactic by certain Muslim men and being unable to speak the language enables them better to do this.

The majority of Muslim women I know speak English fluently, and function easily in our society. But of course they would because I wouldn't know the ones being kept isolated, in their homes, at the neck and call and every whim of their controlling husbands, would I?

This simply doesn't happen with other immigrant groups.

Anya, how do you know some women do not want their family life to continue as it has for many generations ?

Are there no British men who dominate ? No British men who carry out sex attacks?

How do you know what goes on in the homes of all these Muslim families ?

If they don't get out and meet anyone other than their family, no-one knows whether they are content to stay in the house or not. If they had the words to use, they would have the choice to chat to neighbours or not.

Petra its not "tree huggers" whoever they are, that is responsible for "the mess" as you put it. It's the British Empire. That's why we have large groups of people here who originate from former colonies.
And much more recently the Western politicians who have de-stabilised the Middle East by starting the Iraq war. (Imperialism in another guise - we know best and we think we've got a right to interfere)

Immigration has been a huge boon to us, on balance and has allowed the UK economy to grow since WW2 and continue to thrive.

"Are there no British men who dominate" "No British men who carry out sex attacks" - I think everyone knows the answer to that. However, you may care Anniebach to google "Taharrush gamea" - a gang rape phenomenon that pertains to the Arab world. Gamea means collective. You are no doubt aware what happened in Cologne where a 1,000 strong crowd of Arab men surrounded and isolating German women, tripping them up, pulling at their clothes, man handling them, groping them and in the most extreme cases raping them. I think the total number of women who came forward to file complaints, after this had initially been hushed up was something in the order of 600. This was the ordeal that American female journalist suffered in Tahir Square in Cairo a few years ago where she had all her clothes removed and was assaulted in a very invasive way. Egyptian women, even those who are completely covered have suffered this abuse because they have had the temerity to be out on the streets protesting. A practice that a section of men in Arabic society do to humiliate women because they regard them as worthless sluts. Seemingly it has now been exported to Europe. No doubt there isn't a country in the world where on occasions men dominate and inflict violence on women, and less commonly sometimes it's the other way round, the women inflict violence on men so using that argument is arbitrary However, as far as I'm aware, excluding drunken behaviour in clubs . I haven't heard of vast groups of western men of this magnitude going on the prowl with the intention of sexually assaulting women on the streets of Europe. Or perhaps you are of the same opinion of a Muslim cleric in Germany," they brought it upon themselves because they were wearing perfume" In the words of Diane Abbott, "you cannot defend the indefensible". I don't think it's unreasonable to be alarmed or dislike the men who are behaving in this way.

Annie I think it is pretty well known that there are Muslim families who still want to live in the way their forefathers did which includes the women staying at home and not taking part in life outside the home. The women in some of these families do not have a choice because they do not know what life in this country is like.

I know a woman who came over in the 60s and still thinks that the men should have the first helping from the dishes, have what they like and the women should have what is left. However, she does speak English and work. I think that is a tradition which is pretty harmless to the rest of us but does show that, in her view, men are more important than women.

Yes, there are British men who dominate but also British women. They just don't get the publicity.

Of course British men carry out sex attacks but it was said in the Rotheram cases that they didn't target Muslim women because they valued them more highly than British. If they had fully integrated they might have had different values.

Well said, TerriBull.

petra I'm not sure how referring to people as belonging to the "hug a tree brigade" adds to the debate.

I certainly think it is desirable for immigrants to learn English. Many immigrants were learning English until David Cameron imposed public service cuts and classes were closed. What I object to is the targeting of one group of immigrants over and above anybody else, the threat of deportation (whether it is likely to happen or not) and the implication that Muslim women who can't speak English are in some way responsible for terrorism.

To those who state that the British who go abroad are all self-supporting people who make great contributions to their host country, this comes from an article in The Guardian in January last year:

"Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments....

"The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one."

In 2011 the Guardian reported in an article entitled *Most Brits in Spain say no gracias to integration*:

"Journalist Benny Davis, who writes for the expat paper, EuroWeekly News, said: "Brits tends to live in a bubble........ Many residents speak no more than 10 Spanish words in an average week – usually restaurant Spanish – and they pride themselves on 'getting by'.

And in The Telegraph in October last year:

"Nearly a third of Britons abroad have no local friends and refuse to venture beyond their British friendship groups, a study has revealed.

"Expats living in Africa and the United Arab Emirates are least integrated – almost half describe their social groups as mainly British. Eastern Europe is another spot where foreigners tend to stick to their own – 41 per cent admitted to this."

Perhaps we should practise what we preach.

Absolutely TerriBull!

Did anyone listen to Woman's Hour this morning? One of the subjects being discussed was the very high incidents of birth defects in Pakistani families.
One of the hospital consultants said that he explained to the Husbands that the defect was a genetic problem.
The Husband then had to translate to the Mother. The consultant said that he knew that the Husband was not telling the truth to the Mother.
Although I am, in theory, against tax payers money being used for English lessons, if just some of these women could understand the problems caused by marrying your first cousin, it could save an awful lot of money.
I've been aware of this problem for some years. And the amount of money needed to support these children is huge.
Good on Woman's hour for discussing it.

Terribul a western woman I know extremely well was in Tahir Square and met with nothing but kindness an courtesy, while there on her own, for over a week. It is not impossible that the journalist who was attacked, was targeted for being an American journalist, not for being a woman. So sorry for her, but not a good example.
Petra yes I am sure we all agree it would be a good thing to discourage that. However individual women (or men) may not have had any choice in who they marry if they had arranged marriages on the subcontinent. Health authorities could potentially spread the word amongst the UK citizens involved, the vast majority of these young people will have been through the UK school system and have perfect English.

I reiterate that withdrawing ESOL funding over recent years, then announcing that you are putting up a fraction of the amount, and adding a threat into the mix is putting up my back. And presumably trying to make political capital out of this. Nice strategy - withdraw funding, then decide there is a problem really, and put back a fraction of the money in a PR stunt to win votes. We should all look forward to 2020 election with glee.
Was it done tactfully? Will it actually help promote integration?
For those of you who did not read the (long) Guardian link above, the author concludes with this:

No issue is more likely to incense Muslim families than targeting their mothers and grandmothers; it will be seen as a threatening and unwarranted intrusion into their private domestic lives.

So true Jess. Cameron knew he was stirring up anti Muslim sections of the population no matter the offensive caused, he is using the same tactic he used in the election when he used the Scots, he is a great believer in - devide and rule

We all know how well the British migrants integrated in SA !

I can't speak for other people who haved lived in another country, but for myself I can say that I was very much aware that I was living in somebody else's country. There were many 'unfair' instances but you just had to take it, it's the price you pay.
Because of my own experiences I feel very strongly that we give give give, to people that choose to live in this country.

I'm totally shocked by the people on this thread who want these poor women to continue living their lives as slaves to their husbands, brothers and fathers. And those who would deny them this right by suggesting they don't want a freer existance.

And who has said they want women used as slaves? Not one of us know what the women you refer to want Anya , they may want to live the same life as British women do, they may not, but why not offer help not launch an attack on them as Cameron did , and it was an attack

Anniebach your comment you know what it is like for the English to don their little Englander boots and start stamping over ones language and culture, says it all really. It is such a rascist thing to say about English people, absolutely offensive and untrue, at least you have shown your true colours, if that comment was made about any other people all hell would break loose, but then we are sitting ducks really and have to put up with such rascist comments, because we don't have feelings do we.

But I do know what it's like Luckylegs, I would love to stand next to you in a shop in England and hear your reaction to someone saying - must you be so ignorant , speak Welsh girl . Or listen to a to interview where a man from Wales declares - we like our holiday home in England , it's their language we can't stand , you haven't the foggiest about racist comments by some English which I have been subjected to. Thankfully not all are the same

Some Welsh speakers are also guilty of being extremely hostile and unwelcoming to the English, especially those classed as 'incomers'. But I suppose you'll blame that on past history as well...

And this thread really isn't supposed to be about racism, perceived or otherwise.

What do you expect Ana? I think the Welsh have been very forgiving

Thank God this woman spoke English.
I have just been reading the story of an Afgan Mother who went to social services to stop her Husband taking their 9yr old Daughter to Afganistan to marry her 18 yr cousin.