Who's fooling who or what's the difference between a rebate and a deduction

No surprise I don't agree with the constant derision of David Cameron.

He was at the Northern Future Forum this week and I noted a lot of respect coming from the Scandinavian leaders. They were certainly 'not' dismissing him or the UK.

He is being proven right over the appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker. You couldn't make it up. If I am correct the French and Germans are calling for his resignation because of his 'sweetheart tax deals' whilst he was the Luxembourg PM. Cameron
b-----y well told them but now the heat is on by the media they are crawling out from their rocks to throw Junker under the bus. Cameron stood his ground and only Hungary had the balls to vote against his appointment although it was widely reported others agreed he was not the right candidate.

Cameron has repeatedly said he wants to stay in the EU but it needs reforming on things such a migrant welfare. Oh how they laughed. Today the European Court of Justice backed Germany's attempt to restrict migrants rights to welfare. I can just see Merkel, Cameron and Co saying "You do it Angela not David the court hates the British and they'all just say no".

I don't want to be so rude to Ed Miliband as some like to be to David Cameron as I don't think it enhances conversation/debate but I have to say I just see weakness and I agree with two of the lefts favourite spokespeople Len McClusky and Russell Brand. One said something like Ed Miliband wouldn't be missed if he fell under a bus". The other says "Don't vote". I agree with them

Anyway

Why we shouldn't particularly care about what Europeans think is ironically in the theme of this thread.

We have been told we owe more money because our economy has done so much better than the like of Germany. (I still don't get that)

So why should we take lessons from Europe. Even the IMF, which was paraded by the left to try and mock George Osborne, has had to change it's tune and admit it had got it wrong.

I find it quite ironic that Germany, which was bullying Greece not so long ago because of its dire financial situation, is now willing to accept money from the likes of Greece because Germany's economy is flagging whilst Greece's is improving.

Is it me or is it all a complete and utter shambles?

I think it is mainly a shambles too.

But I think that the EU has contributed to peace in much of Europe for the last 70 years.

So, if or when it comes to the vote, I am not sure I would necessarily vote to leave.

But would staying in the EU, actually bring long term unrest.
I fear it might.
In which case, the decision to leave becomes a whole lot easier.

Bring back the Common Market.

That is the best idea I have heard in a long time, Nfk

I am sure the EU helps keep peace in Europe and the CBI tells us it is good for business (didn't the CBI want us to adopt the Euro as well?) but the EU has become like a juggernaut out of control.

Was the Lisbon Treaty a step too far?

I agree NfkDumpling but it won't happen because the 'gravy train' is running at top speed.

I watched a bit of a farce last night into the early hours where BBC Parliament was showing a 'debate', not, from the European Parliament concerning tax evasion and Junker was on the platform. It was not a particularly easy ride for him as some want him to resign.

At the end of it they were voting for 'another' Vice President. There are now 14 Vice Presidents.

The vote was challenged as the choice was vote yes or abstain. It was called a secret ballot but a blue light shows when they vote. Members of the parliament challenged why there was not a vote of yes, 'no' or abstain and how could it possibly be secret. Basically they were wafted away and the vote carried.

To try and redress my lack of knowledge on this subject I've braced myself and put the reading glasses on, and this is what I've found out. The fine print says that the rebate - given to the UK since 1984 to redress imbalances in EU subsidy allocations and VAT - reduces the UK's contribution by two-thirds which is spread out amongst the other members to make up the EU budget. So the rest of the EU subsidises the UK rebate. However, like most things to do with international finance, what starts off simple and clear ends up obscure as an old-style London fog, after the politicians, lawyers and other interested parties have had their way. But in general, I'm sure we're all better of within the EU - the decades of post-war peace alone justifies it - but there are many ways it can, and must, be improved. The miracle is that it has survived at all, but make no mistake, the UK would be mad to leave it. Naked and alone in the cold storm-tossed Atlantic would not be a nice position to be in. Incidentally, the net amount the UK contributes to the EU is petty-cash compared to the totality of the UK and EU economies, and that's after our bankers have fixed and fiddled exchange and interest rates in their favour under our very 'light-touch' regulatory system, which we will all have to pay for sooner or later.

It might go against the grain for me to concentrate on GO but there seems little doubt that he has deliberately mixed up the rebate with a deduction. The sorry thing is that either he should have known about both and didn't, or he did know and just held on until he could spin it. Either way it smacks of using the facts to your best advantage. Not unusual for politicians but best for us to look for the truth. The Radio 4 programme 'More or Less' would sort it out for us.

As for Ed Miliband, the man has no skeletons in his cupboard, no scandals to reveal, he is a decent, honest family man who wants to make the country fairer. His opponenets will do everything in their wealthy and extensive power to destroy him as they have done with most Labour leaders in the past. There are those who say he betrayed his brother David. What would they have said if David had won? The leadership election was won on the LP rules as they stood at the time.

Miliband is paying for his stance against the press, it can only get worse the nearer the election we get.
I am hoping that the electorate is somewhat more sophisticated than when the press savaged Kinnock, and will look at policies as apposed to the person. I think I live in hope and will probably die in despair though.

A good summary Mog1. The challenge is washing away the deluge of tripe being put out by the right-wing press. I sense from the increasingly nasty attacks on Ed Milliband, hysterical outbursts from David Cameron, and scattergun blasts of dodgy statistics from George Osborne, that the Tories are getting very worried about their electoral prospects, and so they should. This is reinforced by the recent uncharacteristicly hesitant performance of Teresa May about their immigration promises, or was it statements? If I were a Tory (about as likely as me waking up with a full head of hair!) I would be getting very concerned about David Cameron's leadership failures and erratic performance. A (superficially) safer pair of hands might appear to be George Osborne, but that might be their least worst alternative. And now we have Sir John Major trying to whip up some support for their anti-EU stance. The Tories must be getting increasingly panicky if they're reduced to using ghostly old Sir John, another of their great failures, to try and help get them out of the mess they're in.

Ed Miliband himself says he is paying for his stance against banks, hedgefuds, energy companies and payback loan companies. He called them "powerful vested interests".

Oh, papaoscar, you and your 'right-wing press' allegations again!

All the media has it in for Ed Miliband at the moment - it's just his turn, that's all.

Yes Ana, they're at it again, watering down the worker's beer, these champions of free enterprise and wild rhubarb. Strange thing is, with all their advantages, they still do mightily well at messing things up. Mind you, on the other side of the river give the great unwashed a touch of power and they'll just put on the emperor's old clothes and strut about like pantomime clowns. Ah, now I've let slip that I might be a renegade old Liberal longing for the return of beards, sandals, Shirley Wiliams, and David Steel. Plenty of grand plans and no risk of ever having to carry them out!

Sorry to say the consperacy theory re the right wing press and nasty tories doesn't wash.

The New Statesman isn't right wing. The BBC isn't right wing. Labour MP Simon Danczuk isn't right wing. Labour MP Austin Mitchell isn't right wing. I could go on but I suppose it would fall on stoney ground because once you believe something you won't change your mind.

Ed Miliband won the leadership contest because of his backing from the unions, not the backing of his MP's and like all the others parties you will have division of loyalty.

One could say it was the left wing press and the nasty Labour party who tried to 'get at' Ian Duncan Smith and William Hague when they were leaders of their party but at the end of the day if they or Miliband couldn't /can't hold their party together or command respect from the public then don't blame the press or come up with excuses.

I think the voter has become a little more engaged with politics than thought and I don't think they are so easily fooled as some think.

Wonderful post, papaoscar - well said!

Quite honestly, I don't know who I would vote for (I do know who I would not vote for and that is the Liberals!)

Dave and his Tories? some are OK and mean well. Dave seems a fairly decent man but I think he needs a bit more gravitas, sometimes he seems like a feather blowing this way and that in the breeze

Ed and his dis loyal band? Some are OK and mean well. Ed seems to come across as a fairly decent man - until you remember how he stabbed his brother in the back. Shades of Cain and Abel.

Nigel? Well, no, perhaps not.

Are any of them that capable? Were any of them that capable in the past or was it just that the light was not shone so brightly into their machinations?

At least the Eds want us to stay in Europe. Believe it or not, I actually feel sorry for Nick Clegg in this situation. Heaven knows what Farage's wife must think.

What will affect us once the election is over is not the personality of the PM but the policies that are imposed. It would be so much more sensible to debate them.

whitewave surely the personalities dictate policy to some extent? And faith in the leader is of prime importance.

Hmm, but surely you would not vote in someone just because you thought they seemed OK - you have to look at the policies. Faith doesn't always get you very far, look at Cameron's promises to leave the NHS alone, and Blaire's march into Irag, Cleggs promise with regard to student loans. Voting is a judgement of past history, current mandate and ideology. Your view of the world will dictate to a certain extent your voting pattern, but undoubtedly when looking at the different party's manifestos you may find yourself in the situation of agreeing with different parties on different issues, it then becomes a matter of judgement, and balance.

More and more I think that our entire political system needs a good shake-up but, of course, we don't want to chuck out the best with the worst. Efforts have been made for yonks to shake up the Lords, but without much success. And the first-past-the-post voting system is increasingly said to be unrepresentative of big slabs of the electorate, especially in the regions. Now that the Celts have got their own talking-shops perhaps the time has come at last to restructure Westminster so that we Anglo-Saxons can have a proper say about what happens in our own back-yards. But then our bizarre informal constitution must also be properly sorted out. I shall review all of this through a haze of Christmas cheer, but I expect that in the end apathy and lethargy will assist old status-quo to prevail. At least I enjoy their music!