The Vaccine

Sorry folks, can't help myself.

Its "quantum" trisher. If you want to have a chat about Hugh Everett and his theories of quantum superposition and non-collapsing wavefunctions, I suggest you start another thread and I'll join you there.

growstuff

There are some notable scientific contrarians who questioned the status quo and their theories have stood the test of time. Galileo and Darwin are classic examples.

Nevertheless, it doesn't mean that every contrarian viewpoint is valid. I sometimes feel that there are some people who make a lucrative living out of being contrarian, which isn't that difficult to do in an era when authority is being constantly questioned.

But it has been alleged on this thread that scientists don't "believe" anything but deal in facts, whereas actually they understand and believe according to what is the current agreed scientific theory Hugh Everett 111 and quantam theory being a classic example of something rejected as nonsense by scientists for a long time.

Alegrias2, if you only reassured one other person on here it's progress so I thank you.
I didn't need convincing but was grateful for your reassurance.

For a minute there Franbern I thought "here we go again"...

annsixty I hope you got some useful information from this long thread .

I like that theory, Franbern. Tailor-made for those who want magic wands to cure everything. One ring to rule them all.

Playing Devil's Advocate is useful, but doesn't necessarily overturn consensus.

I get a general impression that many posters are saying the vaccines are very welcome, though they are not quite a done deal yet. That gets interpreted by some, of course, as saying that everyone OUGHT to have them the moment they are available.

Okay....I have a new 'theory'. Now, I have no training or expertise in science or medicine - but surely the fact that I am NOT an expert means my theory has every reason to be good.
So....could it be that Corona Virus was actually designed to control us all - put out in the air (maybe by those airplane trails) by every government in the world for that purpose, but then got a bit out of hand. So, now the vaccines are to take away those control bugs they had released into the air and put us back to where we had been pre-Covid.
So, that would mean that all those who do not have the Vaccine, are keeping themselves under that control.

SIGH - I know, absolutely stupid - but no more stupid that any of the other 'theories'. Might even find some legs amongst those anti-vaccers, and get them to pushing to the front of the queue.

People who start threads are often accused of never getting back, so here I am.
I didn’t realise when I asked the question, just how contentious a subject it would become.

Thank you for all your thoughts.
I have read each and every one.
I am still undecided but veering towards accepting the offer when it is made.

I think it would be cowardly of me to wait and see.
Why should I let other people take the any risk if I am not prepared to.

I was never against it, just undecided to have it early or wait.

I have always trusted my Dr to be honest with me, I will now trust the scientists to do the same.

There are some notable scientific contrarians who questioned the status quo and their theories have stood the test of time. Galileo and Darwin are classic examples.

Nevertheless, it doesn't mean that every contrarian viewpoint is valid. I sometimes feel that there are some people who make a lucrative living out of being contrarian, which isn't that difficult to do in an era when authority is being constantly questioned.

This imagined beyond, which the scientist has proved he cannot penetrate, will become the playground of the imagination of every mystic and dreamer. Thank goodness for that. I was thinking of Hugh Everett 111 who was scorned by so many scientists for so long.

trisher

I wonder why those who choose to believe in the vaccine feel the need to denigrate anyone who asks questions and to assert their superior and unchallengable knowledge? Could it be that they are neither as certain nor as clever as they pretend? Whistling in the dark perhaps?

I really don't feel you understand what "believe" means in the context of science.

Scientists don't "believe". They do research and come up with results. No decent scientist would claim to "know" anything apart from the results of any experiments they've done. That's why things are called "theories".

I don't believe in a vaccine, but I read the results. I know the human race has benefited from vaccines in the past.

They haven't been peer-reviewed yet (AFAIK), but it would appear that the efficacy is high, so they do work. Whether they work for everybody and whether they can be delivered in practice are different issues. Nobody can know what the overall effect on public health will be for many months or years.

So I ask myself some questions:

1 Will it harm me? Almost certainly not.
2 Will it harm me more than the alternative? No.
3 Will it benefit me? Probably.
4 Will it benefit others? Probably.

Once risks are balanced, to me, it's a no-brainer.

trisher

Claude Levi Strauss
Le savoir scientifique avance à pas trébuchants, sous le fouet de la contention et du doute.
Scientific knowledge advances haltingly and is stimulated by contention and doubt.

Oui c'est vrai trisher. Et qu'est-ce que ça veut dire?

It means that every scientific advance starts with a question which the scientists try to find an answer to, and that they realise that the only way forward is by questioning every hypothesis and trying to prove it wrong before making their findings known.

Levi-Strauss also said this: The man in the street will, therefore, twist the statement that the scientist has come to the end of meaning into the statement that the scientist has penetrated as far as he can with the tools at his command, and that there is something beyond the ken of the scientist. This imagined beyond, which the scientist has proved he cannot penetrate, will become the playground of the imagination of every mystic and dreamer.

naughtynanny How about a link to a proper science-based website, not yet another anti-vaccination one?

How about you do some proper research?

OMG! I've just realised naughtynanny is another one "telling me to do research*.

What is wrong with these people?

I think if your mind is set on having a vaccine, then nothing anyone says will sway you, that's fine, I get it.

Wrong!

My mind isn't set on anything. I find your comment extremely patronising.

You're silly to make such an assumption.

Well said Allegrias2. I do resent the implication that the people who choose to have the vaccine are mindless morons who don’t have the intelligence to question the science, whereas the doubters seem to choose extremely questionable sources and then try to persuade other people that those sources are more credible than the scientific evidence. As you say, the science is the science.

Claude Levi Strauss
Le savoir scientifique avance à pas trébuchants, sous le fouet de la contention et du doute.
Scientific knowledge advances haltingly and is stimulated by contention and doubt.

I wonder why people ask questions and make random hypotheses and then don't listen to the answers they get?

People will draw their own conclusions about our exchange trisher. In the meantime, here's a quote for you.

The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.
Neil deGrasse Tyson

I wonder why those who choose to believe in the vaccine feel the need to denigrate anyone who asks questions and to assert their superior and unchallengable knowledge? Could it be that they are neither as certain nor as clever as they pretend? Whistling in the dark perhaps?

Alegrias2

^But, you can and should do your own research first, it's not just a vial of innocence that you are choosing to inject into your body, just key in 'flu vaccine ingredients' or 'covid vaccine ingredients' you may have to do a few clicks, but it's all out there for YOU to read, just like I did.^

For the 578th time, being able to Google things doesn't amount to research

You can say that again

The Internet has been a curse in some respects

But, you can and should do your own research first, it's not just a vial of innocence that you are choosing to inject into your body, just key in 'flu vaccine ingredients' or 'covid vaccine ingredients' you may have to do a few clicks, but it's all out there for YOU to read, just like I did.

For the 578th time, being able to Google things doesn't amount to research

How many scientists do you know Trisher? Well add one to that number because now you now know me. I know lots of scientists too, and the vast majority of them know that they don't know everything. Many of them became scientists because they are aware that there are many unknowns in the world and the only way to fill the gap is through scientific research. So don't start quoting how research and scientific studies work, and how scientists might be pressured into producing results that would affect the health of millions and millions of people, because in this case this scientist does know better than you.

My apologies on numbers tested, and on not being able to quote the reference, the 'couple of hundred' that I inaccurately referred to were those over 65yrs old who have participated in testing.

It should also be noted that within the vaccinated, for the Oxford tests, volunteers take part in a double blind test so some will have received a placebo. All will have maintained lock downs and other restrictions, and continued to exercise social distancing, mask wearing etc. As I remember you needed to be fit and well not taking other medication, not pregnant, and or vulnerable. I don't know if the vaccination was tested on children.

I don't know what % of fit and healthy work age adults will contract Covid whilst distancing, mask wearing etc. It would be interesting to compare.

What the world need is as has been talked about herd immunity, which can only be achieved by a massive uptake.

I think that has been shown on this thread that people are nervous, and thinking about refusing the chance to help defeat this disease.

However, I do think that once mass inoculation starts throughout the world many, many people who are at the moment reluctant will almost certainly change their minds and understand the necessity for society as well as their own self interest to take part in this wonderful opportunity to save lives throughout the world.

We will see the graph whizz exponentially upwards. I am confident of that.

growstuff

naughtynanny

I'm 67, I have never had, and never will a have a flu jab, and they will drag me screaming to have this rushed out vaccine which has been created to suit the Government narrative. It takes YEARS to create and test a safe vaccine. The long term effects cannot possibly be known. Do some research ladies, it's all there on Google. Look at the ingredients. Dead foetus, aluminum, formaldehyde, do you really want to put all this into your body? Of course I appreciate everyone thinks and feels differently, it's a personal choice.

What Government narrative do you mean?

Where did you read that the vaccine contains dead foetus, etc?

growstuff and anyone else who likes to do some research.

I think if your mind is set on having a vaccine, then nothing anyone says will sway you, that's fine, I get it.

But, you can and should do your own research first, it's not just a vial of innocence that you are choosing to inject into your body, just key in 'flu vaccine ingredients' or 'covid vaccine ingredients' you may have to do a few clicks, but it's all out there for YOU to read, just like I did.

here is just one link.
www.arnica.org.uk/vaccine/whats-in-a-vaccine
but there are plenty of others, they all say almost the same thing, and if you join up the dots, you will eventually find the insert that comes in the box of vaccine. Its truly horrific.

The Government 'narrative' is one of scaremongering people into having a vaccine that any otherwise healthy individual does not need.

Why would you have a vaccine for something that has a 99.7% recovery rate.

The elderly should be protected, I agree, they are vulnerable to ANY infections, but the rest of the population should be free to choose how they live their life, and should take whatever steps they feel appropriate to protect their health, not be dictated to by Government. It's almost tyranny.
Yes, I do have strong views, but I'm respectful of others' opinions too. It's totally a personal choice.