Great news amon all the doom and gloom

God knows I should have as much or more reason than most to be for organ donations- Paw was blessed with nearly 20 more years after his liver transplant in 1998 -20 years which let him see our three daughters happily married and the birth of 4 of our 5 grandchildren, instead of excruciating liver failure and what he described (having seen other poor souls on the Hepatology Ward) as “fried brains”
But and this is a big but, it appears that where organ donation is an “opt out” it does not result in an increase in the supply of organs for transplantation.
So not a simple issue at all.

Thank you for your insight, MawB

I do not think that this is a simple issue at all.
Interesting that the "opt out" course does not result in an increase in the supply.

Do you have references for that claim, please, maw?

Out of interest, if you have received a donated organ, the strict drug regime including immunosuppression you will be on following the transplant is likely to render you absolutely unsuitable to be a donor at any stage in the future.

I think jura's idea was that people should be willing to be donors if they wish, should circumstances require it, to be organ receivers. I don't think there was any suggestiion that people who have received organs would then be expected to be donors.

That's my understanding anyhow.

I don't agree with jura's suggestion, btw. It's a bit primitively authoritarian for my liking.

1.8 on the other hand, we found considerable evidence highlighting the potential downside of such a mov
1.9 The clinical Working group heard persuasive arguments from health professionals about the potentially negative implications for clinical practice, especially the potential to damage the vital relationship of trust between clinicians caring for people at the end of life, their patients and their families. some intensive care staff in particular fear that a move to an opt out system would make critical care more difficult and could lead to some intensive care practitioners themselves opting out of participation in donation programmes. This would be disastrous for the futureof organ donation in the uK since many of the recommendations made by the Taskforce in its earlier report, organs for Transplants, are dependent on the active support of intensive care practitioners

Just one here Baggs but there are others, this is from the Report by the Organ Donation Taskforce.
You could also look at the figures for countries such as Spain and (I think Wales)

And this from the BBC website
Presumed consent
In Wales, where an opt-out system was introduced in December 2015, there has actually been a small dip in the number of deceased donors, from 64 in 2015-16 to 61 in 2016-17. This resulted in a drop in organ transplants from 214 to 187 respectively.
This is not to say the opt-out scheme is having a negative effect - some fluctuation is to be expected - but so far, despite the claims, we don't have any evidence that it is having a positive effect

I know two people very very closely who have had organ transplants - a 38 year old ( liver, 10 years ago) and a 72 year old ( kidney, 25 years ago). I simply cannot, because of this and the enormous joy their continuing to live has given to so many of us, have a coherent conversation with people who talk of open caskets and intact bodies. Dead bodies you mean dead bodies which could have given life and joy. The ultimate in selfishness I have to say. It’s worth trying opt out and it can be revisited in a few years time.

Thanks, maw.

Quickly glancing at these they seem to be projections and guesses rather than hard data. I think I'll try and find info from places, if any exist, where opt out systems have been in place for a while.

Baggs here’s some info - hard facts- on Spain which has opt out
www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/spain-leads-world-organ-donation-organ-transplant-health-science-a8417606.html

Let’s face it, who goes in for “open caskets” anyway and anybody who has to have a post mortem will be “carved up” (I do apologise for being incredibly tactless, ) than the surgery required for organ harvesting.
While Paw’s liver transplant was a life saver it is rarely a simple business, surgery lasting many hours followed by a punishing drug regime and the possible side effects on the other organs, in his case PTLD (post transplant proliferative disorder) lymphoma,, further surgery, too many stays in hospital to enumerate, and ultimately fatal hepato-renal syndrome and sepsis.
Yes, I am eternally grateful for his second chance at life, but let nobody think it is just a case of an operation and bob’s your uncle.

Spain is a much better example than Wales as the opt out system has been going for decades and there has probably been a cultural shift to reflect that. It shows what can be done

Forgive me if I take no further part in this discussion, it is too distressing, but yes, we all carry donor cards in our family and the Christmas after Paw had his transplant, the girls and we included a donor card in all the Christmas cards we sent out, inviting our friends to complete them if they did not already carry one.

The young woman I know of course is on a life long drug regime but has a career, a flourishing social life and is a multiple gold medal winner at the World Transplant Games. Her life span may be foreshortened - who knows - and there have been scares but I have known her since she was in utero and all of us, and most importantly her, are grateful for the life she has been given by the generosity and unselfish love of two bereaved parents.

Thank you, sw.

SirChenjin I do not need a lecture, as I know far too much about the subject myself

I wasn’t lecturing you, I was explaining what I meant in my earlier post and what I think/hope will happen as societal views change.

suziewoozie as I explained earlier I have no objection to organ donation and have resisted as a donor to do just that i.e. if part of my body can be used to save another life that’s fine. What I don’t want is for bits of me to be in jam jars somewhere or to be cut up just for the sake of it.

I think there are a lot of people who agree with organ donation but never do anything about opting in or letting loved ones know their wishes so I agree with having to opt out.

Since it transpires that the hospital has to ask the family for their permission in any case, then we may as well keep the opt in preference.

I think that many people may be on a drugs or treatment regime for longstanding conditions which would probably render them unsuitable as donors.

If they should opt out of the scheme, is it right that they should be refused an organ donation if they ever should need one?

I do not think so but others may think differently.

My organs wont be suitable to donate, i have signed my body up for research and teaching though.

There is another discussion on this subject. It was about 6 months ago and has many more thoughts and info.
If you're particularly interested in the subject it might be worth a read.

Personally I'm against this move and don't believe the evidence is there to support it.

I actually agree with the proposal. You can, if you choose to, opt out. But when someone you love is dying you can't bear the thought of their body being cut up, it's a difficult question for doctors to ask. This way there is no trauma, no decision to be made by your nearest and dearest. I know a couple of young people who would not be here without an organ donation so maybe I have a biased view

Not if you want evidence, read my link to what’s happened in Spain.

Baggs ''I think jura's idea was that people should be willing to be donors if they wish, should circumstances require it, to be organ receivers. I don't think there was any suggestiion that people who have received organs would then be expected to be donors.

That's my understanding anyhow.

I don't agree with jura's suggestion, btw. It's a bit primitively authoritarian for my liking.''

of course this is what I meant. And of course I am perfectly aware that it could not be applied in real life. I just think that it is hugely unfair to expect and accept donations, and yet not be prepared to donate.

Silly analogy, but I belong to a 'tool exchange' club - we pay a small fee per year for insurance purpose, and we exchange tools, garden, decorating, car maintenance, etc. It works brilliantly- what is the point of all have a chainsaw, and a leaf blower, and tall ladder, paint stripper, garden shredder, etc, etc. Brilliant. but if the next door neighbour, who said he did not want to be part of the scheme and share- turns up to borrow my stuff- am I supposed to lend it to him?

One woman at our babysitting club when kids were young, clocked up 100 hours of babysitting by others- before moving away. She never babysat once!