Feel like I've betrayed my principles..

Charleygirl and durhamjen. I'm just saying that privatisation wouldn't suddenly be sprung upon us and obviously those of us beyond a certain age wouldn't be expected to get insurance.

I was trying to see the bigger picture, not advocating privatisation. Yes, durhamjen, like America (obviously!).

I'd give up if I were you Ana

But privatisation is being sprung upon us and quicker than ever if TTIP gets the go ahead.

nhap.org/whats-wrong-privatising-nhs/

Will do, Aka! Bees in bonnets are hard to fight off...

Sounds painful. I've noticed a lot of bees and wasps around at the moment, but thank goodness none of those horrible bluebottles.

Erm...have you really not noticed?
(Not on this thread, I don't think...)

Perish the thought

In America, 30% is spent on admin. Here it is still only 15%, up from the 5% it was pre privatisation, which lots of people complained about.

Thank you for sharing Jen now I really must before I drop off.

You're welcome.

This is all very sad and reflects the dreadful situation that some unfortunate people needing medical treatment are facing. The fragmentation of the NHS over many years is a disgrace.

Yes, papaoscar, that's the point I am trying to get across. I cannot see how some people can't see what's happening to the NHS. I read many websites, some of them only for health professionals, and there are very few health professionals who are happy with the situation. GP surgeries are closing all over the country. Hospitals and A&E closing too. It's getting very worrying.
None so blind....

I think people can see what is happening but they feel rather helpless to do anything about it. Whenever I read on the subject it seems that privatisation of parts of the NHS has been going on piecemeal for years.

susieb, I hope you are getting the treatment you need

janea, my eldest brother's medical school fees were paid by the state. He didn't come out of medical school and GP training with a huge debt. There must be a generation of older doctors like him trained at public expense. As a family we were taught that the more you get out of society the more you owe it back.

The original post was about principles. I guess if you are a socialist then you may feel that you have to use the NHS and only that.If the poster means this, then it's up to her if she goes private or not.
I feel that my health [and my family] come first, and it doesn't bother me at all , so I would pay if the money was available for private care.
As other poster say, we can all give examples of 'wonderful' or indeed 'terrible' care from the NHS.
Some families spend fortunes on holidays to Disneyworld, some spend fortunes on drink and smoking, some prefer to spend it on private healthcare.You 'takes your choice' in this life.
Look after yourself susieb principles are all very well, but you health and standards of life are important.

Some rather unpleasant comments here, directed at a poster who is attempting to dismiss the casual approach taken towards privatisation of the health services by some.

The health service is being privatised, it isn't being 'sprung on us", it's happening in full sight. I am not complacent that this won't affect those of us of a certain age, who won't be expected to get insurance (Ana 's contribution earlier on this thread) The NHS isn't perfect, but it's certainly good enough, and often spectacularly good.

I'm not complacent either, Iam64. I was just giving my take on the problem as it now stands. If the government suddenly insisted that everyone in the country took out health insurance there would be mass panic and a lot of unnecessary deaths - they're not going to risk that.

As Bags says, the privatisation of parts of the NHS has been going on stealthily for years and there doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it.

Roses socialists also use private health care, whether because they're sent there by the NHS or because they have the means (often on credit card) to get the treatment they need and also save the NHS some time and money. We don't have a lot of choice with some things like dentistry.

My worry is that the balance is going to tip before long and private health care will be inevitable for the majority, with pro bono health intervention just for emergencies. Claire Rayner must be haunting those ministers who are tampering with her beloved NHS, as she promised on her death bed.

You read on other threads about how our children and grandchildren are going to be worse off than we are. How are they going to be able to afford to pay for healthcare insurance?
Another thread on here mentioned the human genome. If that gets off the ground as Cameron wants, yet another reason for medical insurance, and it being refused or increased for our children and grandchildren.
That's the bigger picture I see. My husband had a disease, cerebellar ataxia, that could have been genetic. Fortunately his wasn't. Otherwise our sons would have had to declare it for all insurance purposes.

If the NHS is privatised any more, it will not be the rich paying for health care. They will be the only ones able to afford it, as in pre-NHS days.
That's how they want it.

I have only had positive experience of NHS and that includes childbirth/referrals/operations/and on-going care by a consultant as well as GPs for me and my immediate family.

I am not going to comment on the rights and wrongs of individuals making a choice to go private. I am not suffering their discomfort.

However I do not think I would make that choice (honestly can't say for certain) because of my political principles.

If we have a two tier system then the 'public' system tends to be seen as inferior. ie on the private ward, on the top floor, there are additional nurses & carers, better quality curtains/furniture and a different menu. The Doctors/conultants are, generally speaking, the same. On the public ward the nurse/care assistant is not allowed to heat the back warmer in the microwave for a patient but that can happen in the private ward. It is these little differences that I find harder to accept almost more than the 'jumping the queue' aspect which I can understand more!

It's a bit like the education debate, Penstemmon.
Things that need to be done on the NHS should be. Cosmetic surgery is not a health issue for most people, so should not be paid for on the NHS, unless it is a health issue.
The problem at the moment is we do not know how much work is done by private companies because they are allowed to work under the NHS banner. Even the word NHS has been privatised and is being sold to other nations.

Surely if the NHS can get the same 'service' privately for the same price or less then they are only being efficient in outsourcing it? A relative had her cataract operations on the NHS in a private clinic and I can't see anything wrong with that if the costs were the same or less.

Perhaps what is worrying is that private organisations can do things cheaper than the NHS?

I could list many things I have seen which demonstrate inefficiencies in the NHS and also wasting money.

My own experience of the NHS was terrible where we used to live and is great where we live now.

Bags University tuition fees were introduced in the early 2000s so anyone who has been qualified for 10 years will have paid something.
Do you think that everyone who goes to university should work for the state?
Should lawyers all provide legal aid?
Should teachers be prevented from working in the private sector, or should anyone who has a PGCE be forced to teach and prevented from doing anything else?
Would you prevent doctors from leaving the country and working abroad?
I think anyone who has been a junior doctor in the NHS and worked their way up to consultant level has repaid their debt to society and then some.

Nonnie - on the surface buying in private care to the NHS seems attractive as it might possibly be cheaper, but it causes such fragmentation of the service, problems of smooth communication and continuity in care, wastage on extra admin costs, loss of cohesion among the clinical team - the list is endless. The trouble with solutions that only look at money is that they ignore the human factor which is so important in a caring NHS. I believe that savings could have been made without losing these important aspects of the NHS - this was not looked at as an option because the changes were led by political dogma.

janeainsworth, you don't need your hard hat as far as I'm concerned! The point which I was making (badly) but which others have since made better, is that if you are a consultant contracted full-time to the NHS you should not rush your NHS work so that you can turn into a private consultant at 3.30 (see posts by petallus and granjura). What you do in your evenings and weekends is, of course, up to you. A lot of junior/younger doctors do out of hours work in their off-duty hours, but by choice, not as part of the job, as DH had to do, and good luck to them, I say!