Secondary School places allocated today [sad]

It's this ridiculous "as the crow flies" that gets me Saralice as the crow flies my granddaughter would have to "fly" across several farmers fields, a fast flowing stream and climb through several hedges.

As a person walks or a bus travels the journey is more tan 10 times longer. Seriously this cannot be right.

I already have it on very good authority (and I have confirmed this myself by making lots of calls today) that a large group of children are bused into the school from miles away when the school my granddaughter has been allocated is on THEIR doorstep less than a five minute walk away, (but it's not a good school so they don't want to go there) . Something smells of underhand selection processes to me .

I sit on appeal panels Gillybob and if the school is full then it is full but......
If you can prove the criteria wasn't applied correctly in the case of your granddaughter then you would most likely win.
One question which does come up and is important is: Where did the child who was last admitted under criteria 4 live? If that child lives further away from the school than your granddaughter then you have a good case.Please remember the distance measured is as the crow flies.
You could write to the authority and ask them this. If they will not tell you keep the reply and take it to the appeal.The school or the authority should give you this information.
Is the school she has been allocated the next nearest secondary school? If so won't there be other children going the same way. Do they provide school buses?
I know it's heart breaking but the only way she will win an appeal is if you can prove the school was wrong in not giving your granddaughter a place.
The only other way she can win an appeal is if there are special circumstances.
I would still appeal as you never know what might happen.The panel could well take in the distance she has to travel and the difficulties and dangers she could face.

How awful! Poor girl! I don't know the background though - do you have custody? If not, what do the parents say?

Please forgive me if I am wrong gillybob.

I know that my DGS (aged 8) has a long day (leaves at 7.30am and doesn't get home until 5pm) but there is no alternative for him and he goes on a bus with other children.

It's the travelling on two buses alone, waiting at bus stops alone in a not very nice area for a small girl (who can see another school yards from her house) that gillybob is concerned about I think, Nannarose.

Putting a positive spin on it would be fine if several of her friends were also going there and having to make that journey.

To add to what Yorkshiregel said, if a child lived in a neighbouring authority with more grammar schools places they could be above that line and and be selected to go to grammar school.

Had some difficulty signing in, so late to this. I would like to say, that whatever happens, I do think that the most important thing is to be positive about the school.

Obviously it's important to appeal on travel grounds, and indeed some local authorities appear quite mad in their allocations - we could write a book on the idiocies. I had friend whose son was allocated a place similar to gillybob's, but (of course) there is no public transport for evening events, and my friend does not drive (and can't afford a car).They thought it quite reasonable that any parents' evening / school performance should entail a parent on minimum wage paying £20 for a taxi.

But, whilst appealing, I really do think everyone around the child needs to be positive about the school itself. All of my kids went to their local comp, shunned by some parents. Their colonisation of the 'good' school across the border was part of the reason my friend's son couldn't get in to his local school - why take the rather average child of a poor parent when you can get affluent ones driving their children in and contributing to whatever fund you want to name.

I noticed a huge difference in the kids who regarded their school as something inferior - 'if only they had got into the posh school, they would have got better grades, been able to enter a profession etc.' and those who got on with their work, got on with the kids around them and made the most of what was offered.

Marianne1953 Children do not 'pass' the eleven plus. What happens is that as there are only X number of places the line is drawn at that point and any children below that point go elsewhere. For example if there had been 19 places available and you got marginally lower marks than the person above you, meaning that you came 20th in line, only the first 19 would go to the Grammar school. However if there had been 20+ places available, you would also have gone to the Grammar school.

So many children feel that they are failures, when actually they are not, there just weren't enough places available. I know this because I used to be a teacher myself.

gillybobso sorry you are put into this situation again. Al I can add is that if I were you I would make sure my local councillor and my MP were informed from the very beginning and given all the details. I'm not saying it will do any good and that things may be 'rigged' as you suggest just that somehow a word in the right quarters can often do more than any presentation at an appeal hearing.

Of course, you can't mention your source but it will be general knowledge.

Yes. Exactly Jalima you really couldn't make that up could you but it's absolutely true. A bus load of children leave a bus stop in a village (about a 5 minute walk from the offered school) are taken to the school right next door to where DGD lives . Stupid woman at LEA (sorry but you have to be stupid to say this) has just said " oh well if there is a bus going there can your granddaughter not get it back." WHAT? At 4pm what the hell good would that be unless schools are doing night shifts these days and I hadn't realized.

That information re the feeder school is useful gillybob as is the fact that your DGD would have been a pupil at a feeder school had it not been full and the appeal to get her a place there failed on that fact alone, not for any other reason.
So a busload of children will be travelling an equal distance to the school right next to your DGD's home but in the opposite direction to her!
Crackers.

I can't offer any advice gillybob - sorry - but send my very best wishes that the outcome to this sorry tale is a happy one xx

Thank you so much to everyone who has posted such useful, helpful information . There are a few posters who I will be contacting via the PM service in the next few days (hope okay) as we start getting our appeal together. One other thing I learned yesterday is that I telephoned the offered school and the secretary seems quite surprised that she had been allocated a school so far away. She told me off the record that one of the feeder schools going to the school near to my DGD's home used to feed into her (the offered ) school as it is VERY close by (but in a posh village ) the secretary said that the primary school and the parents campaigned to have their feeding secondary changed to a one further away but more desirable. she confirmed that a special bus is provided for them to travel there and back.

On Anya's link, there is also stuff about appealing, and travelling times etc.

There is most definitely a way to do these things and Rivendell is absolutely correct that you have to use their own criteria to your advantage. AND to go to national guidelines where local ones might be illegal.

Gilly you really DO have a better chance appealing a secondary transfer, but you must get all your ducks lined up. I'd take up the above offer if I were you.

Today 08:16 Rivendell

Many years ago, we went through the appeal process twice in order to gett our elder daughter into the primary school of our choice. Our first attempt failed and, without going into long details, we investigatef the appeal process, took our LEA to court, won a Judicial review and then won a second appeal.
The back ground to our case was that there was a court ruling in the early 80s which ruled that some LEAs had been conducting apoeals incorrectly in putting the burden of proof on parents to show why their child should be given a place. This was said to be wrong. The apoeal panel are required to conduct appeals in 2 stages, Firstly the LEA must prove eith facts snd figures why the school is full and what effect admtting your child would have on the educstion of other children.If the panel believe this is the case then they are required to consider your reasons for wanting the school and consider these against the LEA argument.
I have helped other parents in the past and have found tbst parents with alomost identical cases have had different results.. Prinary school appeals are very difficult to win since a maximum class suze of 30 was imposed.Its a difficult process and stressful and LEAs have a big advsntage in that they are involved in appeals all the time and parents do it just once (normally). Worth approaching the process with the view that you will be no worse off than your current position if you don't succeed.
Happy for you to contact me pruvately about this but not sure how you do so on this forum.

Many years ago, we went through the appeal process twice in order to gett our elder daughter into the primary school of our choice. Our first attempt failed and, without going into long details, we investigatef the appeal process, took our LEA to court, won a Judicial review and then won a second appeal.
The back ground to our case was that there was a court ruling in the early 80s which ruled that some LEAs had been conducting apoeals incorrectly in putting the burden of proof on parents to show why their child should be given a place. This was said to be wrong. The apoeal panel are required to conduct appeals in 2 stages, Firstly the LEA must prove eith facts snd figures why the school is full and what effect admtting your child would have on the educstion of other children.If the panel believe this is the case then they are required to consider your reasons for wanting the school and consider these against the LEA argument.
I have helped other parents in the past and have found tbst parents with alomost identical cases have had different results.. Prinary school appeals are very difficult to win since a maximum class suze of 30 was imposed.Its a difficult process and stressful and LEAs have a big advsntage in that they are involved in appeals all the time and parents do it just once (normally). Worth approaching the process with the view that you will be no worse off than your current position if you don't succeed.
Happy for you to contact me pruvately about this but not sure hoe uou do so on this forum.

It's not the cost of the journey. Because the school is over 3 miles away the cost of travel should be met by the LA. It's the length of time a Y7 pupil will have to travel, by herself, to get there.

I posted a link about travel. The last sentence of 3:6 stated something which could be used in an appeal. I forget the exact wording but it covered two points, one about the safety of the child en route and the other that the child ought to arrive at school in a state conducive to learning.

Gilly needs to gather concrete points like that. No mention of the fact the school is inadequate. And I agree that her name ought to be put on the waiting list ASAP

The problem here is the criterion children from feeder schools are higher up the list. Most schools in the country don't have specific feeder schools, and this policy throws up anomalies like this. My OH was the head of a very popular oversubscribed secondary and they always had many appeals every year from parents who felt entitled to a place. He felt sorry for these parents , but always opposed them as the school was already full, and to add extra children would compromise the education of the children already in the school ,the strain on staff , not to mention things like health and safety, plus at that time( not sure what the rules are now - but funding has been cut) they would receive no extra funding for going over the prescribed number so there was an additional strain on resources. His advice would be to make sure you are on the waiting list as places come up quite frequently for many different reasons.

Have a chat with the legal team on the education law line run by the charity Corum they are very helpful and will advise on how to appeal with best arguments there is also a book I recommend called How To Win Your School Appeal

Make sure your grandchild's name is kept on the waiting list. Chances are several parents will not send their children to that school for various reasons and she will get a place. It happens all the time. Sometimes you have to wait to hear after the start of the Autumn Term. You'd be surprised how many children don't 'turn up' on the first or subsequent days of the new term. Don't give up, she may get a place mid-term, later in the year or in Year 8. All the best!

There is no point going on about the injustice of other things in the past.
That's true, although I think it is relevant that, had her appeal been allowed to go to the feeder primary near her home, she would have probably automatically got a place at the secondary school near her home.
The reason the appeal was not allowed was lack of places as far as I remember. She should be top of the list now to be allocated a place if anyone drops out or the appeal is allowed.

Plan your appeal meticulously. Get information on procedures and deadlines from LA and online as Rigby46 says. Only address the key reasons for your appeal under the criteria stated in the information you find in the Admissions documentation. There is no point going on about the injustice of other things in the past. The panel can only consider points relevant to the criteria stated. I would stress the child's vulnerability (is she also the youngest in her group?). See if you can find something in the safeguarding and duty of care literature. There will be lots of appeals if the desired nearest school is extremely popular. Yours needs to stand out. At the same time look for alternative strategies, if she has to go to another school. Try not to alarm her by discussing your distress and anxieties in front of her. Boost her confidence. Good luck!

It is not realistic to expect a family to afford a taxi to school five days a week.
My children travelled to the next city from 11 years old using the bus, train and metro but they were different times and I would throw my hands up in horror at the thought of my GC doing that today.
You have to know the area to fully appreciate gilly's concern, when we say that a school is poor, believe me the true description is it is probably the pits.