Should we live selfish lives

Should we live selfish lives? - No. That would make us less than human.

Crazygrandma2, Mrs Thatcher's quotation runs as follows:

"And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

To take the 'society' part alone is to decontextualise the quotation and make it virtually meaningless, certainly to make it appear heartless when it is anything but that. Mrs Thatcher was reminding people of reality and responsibility.

If you read the mine of sense and compassion which runs through the Gransnet threads family, sense, reality and empathy are their essence. There can be no help for others without sense and practicality and we cannot shelve our own burdens onto the state and expect a magic wand to be waved.

I don't like to pass judgement on others. The only thing I can say is this: Were in the same situation, any arrangement that would involve leaving two of the most important people in my life when they need me the most, wouldn't work for me!

We don't know the full circumstances of people's lives so it's difficult to offer advice. I think mags has it right, there must be some sort of compromise where we can have a life of our own and still care for family if needed.
The way things are at the moment with Social care and the NHS makes it difficult to get help though.

I couldn't leave my family in the lurch , just couldn't. But I'd so like to live in the sun too. I f I could afford it I'd have 1-2 months abroad every winter after putting respite care in place if needed, compromise.

Is she running scared, wanting to escape because she can't cope?

Can she not cope because she does not want to commit herself to carrying on caring (selfishness) or because she is deeply frightened of the ending for her mum and daughter and can't face the outcomes?

Although her justifications sound like she's all sunny and bright about her decision to live in a golden retirement, what is really going on in her mind?

I just could not go and leave my disabled/sick daughter but I do go away for 3 or even 4 months over the winter to SE Asia. This year my daughter has been taken very ill and is hospital so I am changing my flight and coming home in 2 days time. I also love my country except for the winter which doesn't help my own health. The best of both worlds.

It maybe that with the daughter, the parents have been told to back off to give her some space. That's been the case with two people I know of with MH issues in the family. Sometimes it can be smothering to have parental involvement and the adult child needs to stretch their wings.

Excellent posts from Kim19 and Lilyflower and we have only a synopsis of the situation and cannot appreciate the fuller picture. This is the eternal guilt versus resentment scenario: emotion dictates that it is unthinkable not to become carers for family members yet the reality is frequently tragic and resentment and bitterness kill any positive feelings.
Remember the post last week where the daily visits and constant presence of her Mum (much loved) was having a devastating effect on the mental well being of this gransnetter?
Much would depend on previous family relationships and also the future of the marriage - how would this fare ? As a child I experienced my parents caring most of their married lives with one set of parents living next door and the other in our house. It was a household full of tense situations, no happy , carefree childhood memories and the last grandparent did not die until my parents were in their 70s. When she received a small inheritance my Mum declared it was too late for her and Dad to enjoy life.
As an only child I felt it was my duty to support Mum in her final 12 years after Dad died but as the years went on resentment crept in. I trust I hid it well but had she continued to need this support during my retirement years , (she died the year I was due to retire) I cannot honestly say how I would have reacted.
If good care is in place for both her daughter and her Mum then does it have to be this person not have a right to their own life? I cannot judge. We do not know whether she has done all she considers she is able to do for her own sanity and marriage and now needs respite.
As several of you have said: who knows until you have experienced her situation.

I think I would stay if I had an elderly frail parent who is likely to need care. However, your children should be able to manage without you. I know many of us help out and do a lot of childcare but it's not compulsory. A mentally ill child is different and often it's so stressful to try to help someone with mental health issues that the carer can become ill as well. I don't think all parents are able to do this, I couldn't.

I think you have to do what is right for you. Moving abroad wouldn't make me happy, moving nearer to my family would. I wouldn't see it as a sacrifice. Having said that, if I was in the position to move and my husband didn't want to go I would go without him.

The OP asked 'should we live selfish lives?'

She didn't ask us to judge, in fact she says 'I don't want to know who's right or wrong' she just asks what we would do, what we think.

We never have all the facts in a situation like this, so I try not to judge. The daughter will have to cope after her parents have died and their moving away may prepare her for that.

We do not know the state of relationships within the family.
Not all families are happy families. Her 'do what makes you happy' sounds like some sort of cover story to me, for what is probably a deeper truth. We will never know.

Once we are adults we make our own choices.we all see the world differently but in our bed at night we are the ones who live with our choices.
I couldn't do what your friends doing.
A friend once said you're only a happy as your unhappiest child and for me that's true.If by being there for my children helps them to be a tiny bit happier then that's where I am.

I also couldn't do it. No amount of foreign holidays would have replaced helping to care for my mother during her last years, awful though they were. I also saw how hard it was for my sister, who moved to the other side of the world back in the 80s, not being able to be around to be with mom. There are always unintended consequences. I make no judgmental call as we are all individuals but I do think some people choose to always put themselves first and others don't. The latter group are not necessarily being martyrs.

In a related thought, some people believe in society and their responsibilities to society and others don't. I believe it was Mrs Thatcher who first said, "There is no such thing as society". IMHO we are living with the unintended consequences of that statement.

So, we each make our decisions and that is as it should be, provided we are then prepared to live with any unintended consequences that may occur.

I don't think you can judge individual circumstances. They are all so different and you know the Indian proverb: don't judge another till you've run two miles in their mocassins.

On the surface, her attitude sounds very selfish, but you can't tell what has driven her to it. She could be a pathological egoist or she may be at the end of her tether.

That's a tough one I think if it was me I couldn't go, things could maybe get worse and you would probably feel guilty. My grandaughter has mental health issues, she is 16 and has been like this since she was 11. She lives with my h and I and it's very difficult at times. Sometimes I just want to get on a bus and disappear but I know I could never leave her, what will happen as she gets older I don't know but I will be there for her.

She just sounds like she's at the end of her tether to me. There is no brightness in her life and she's had enough. Then again, perhaps it's her partner who's had enough, just can't face the retirement apparenly mapped out for him. Either way it's an awful decision to have to make - sounds like she's pulled in two directions.

I have a friend like yours. She won't adapt her life for anyone -and the phrase, what goes around, comes around, comes to mind. On the other hand, I have done the opposite and gave up everything for family-with awful consequences for me. Now, in retrospect, I can see that neither way, provides any balance. If I had the chance again, I'd try to find a way forward where I could help family members but also find some fulfilment myself. So maybe, taking frequent holidays and arranging care during that time if necessary, rather than move away for good.

What people say and what they actually do can be miles apart. When push comes to shove I wonder what will be decided.

I personally couldn't do it but I do think sometimes you need to be a little bit selfish to preserve your sanity. We used to have a fantastic social care set up in this Country and Family meant Family; sadly it seems both are disintegrating and we have people starving, blocking hospital beds and having Mental breakdowns and commiting atrocities due to the lack of Mental health care

Love of course, is the costliest thing on the planet, we do give up all sorts of things for those we love, what else is there in life other than loving and being loved?

If a bit of sunshine counts, wait till summer, if its views, we have views here, culture we have that too...........love is only to be found in those we love, if they need us, we have to be there.

I am sorry for your family sorrows........

in my book, supporting your family when in trouble makes me happy!

Kim19 the OP's friend isn't sacrificing a 'golden opportunity' - she wants to go and live in the sun. That's rather different. It's not like a young person being offered a marvellous job somewhere. She could have holidays in the sun, while still looking after her old mother and daughter with MH problems most of the time.

I gather that morethan2(OP)'s DiL is very seriously ill and her DS, as well as coping with that, has young children to look after too. It's not her burden, it's her DS's and DiL's burden, and a very great one.
I think most mothers would want to do what they could to ease that burden for their loved ones.

Total selfishness and toal selflessness are polar opposites and the balance is somewhere in between.

Recently, I have seen an example of self sacrifice where the helper's efforts are not appreciated or thanked and where the sacrificing person has come to hate and resent the ungrateful recipient. I have come to think that the help should not have been given but that the needy recipient should have been left to the consequences of their own actions. The situation of artificial dependence has soured the tempers of both parties.

On the other hand, since retiring five years early, I have dedicated my time and efforts to smoothing the lives of my own husband and two children, all of whom work full time. They are grateful and kind in return and appreciate every effort made. I do not feel at all exploited and am more than willing to go the extra mile. They often help in return when they can.

Perhaps the difference is in the attitudes of both parties: the givers and receivers. If there is goodwill, tolerance and appreciation then an unequal relationship can work.

I am shocked and saddened at how many awful situations arise on Gransnet where people behave immaturely, selfishly, spitefully and unreasonably. Misery ensues and often to good, kind people.