Domestic Violence from kids to parents

Bibbity, who is saying how much better it was for children o be shipped of to institutions ? My post at 17.00 refers to the abuse children experienced in those institutions and in their homes.

I was replying to EllanVannin. The reply function isn’t working.

I am correct HolyHannah when I say that AC estrange themselves from good, decent and loving families. I know I'm correct because it happened to us; there's no "maybe" about it.

Once again, you are invalidating the experience of an EP. You are invalidating myexperience and not for the first time, I'm asking you not to do it.

I don't invalidate your experiences; don't invalidate mine.

Has your son said he estranged himself for no reason?
You’ve referenced him sending emails before. In those emails did he detail issues?

Whether or not you agree with his issues. He believes them. There for he has his reasons.

Bibbity -- That's my point. EAC don't say they estranged for "no reason" because I have never met one that didn't have what they believed were good reasons to do so.

As I said, my parents and in-laws would say we walked away from "loving families" but it's all about perspective.

This article is very clinical but is also a very informative piece on family estrangement and the perspectives I am talking about.

digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1066&context=commstudiespapers

No not for no reason Bibbity; because of his wife. Not for the way he was raised and loved. Not because of 'family issues' but because of his wife.

His emails until the last one I received a couple of weeks ago, 2 days after my mum died, never gave his reasons or talked about his issues, they were just angry, bitter and mean.

We had a wonderful relationship with him for 27 years, until he married and his first child was born.

I cannot agree or disagree with reasons that I know nothing about. We were never given the opportunity to talk, to try and sort out any issues he may have had we were suddenly, brutally and cruelly cut out of his life and the lives of our only GC.

So despite my post @ 18.58 you continue to invalidate our experience HolyHannah.

Of course EAC don't say they estrange for 'no reason' so there is either the assumption from some that it's because of their awful childhood, or they lie in order to 'justify' the estrangement.

Our ES wouldn't admit to estranging us because of his wife, even though that is his reason; even though he told his wife 'I gave up everything for you', he would never admit to us that that was why he did.

Smileless -- It's a long article but worth the read. It explains far more thoroughly and accurately then I can the dynamics I am trying to convey.

No parent is shielded from their child/ren estranging them-Why? Because all parents make mistakes- The idea that perfect people exist is fantasy- Loving families are not flawless-

I whole-heartedly believe that some parents believe they've given their children no reason to estrange them- But I don't know how that's possible, people being people-

I have too say that I have always thought that my experience during pregnancy affected my eldest before she was even born ... the day after I found out I was pregnant I learned that my Dad had terminal bowel cancer (not one symptom did he have and by the time they found it, it was too late. I spent the next 8 1/2 months driving from Scotland to Yorkshire every 2 weeks to be with him. I took my Nursing Finals at 5 1/2 months pregnant, and at 7 1/2 months, in the
middle of December he died, but didn't wait for me to get there, which gave me a lot of guilt and anger. I spent Christmas with Mum and went back north after New Year. I never had time to deal with my grief. Then when I arrived home, my doorbell went and it was one of the kids from next door - "Mummy says please could you help as Daddy isn't well". No he wasn't, he had had a massive heart attack. my husband was useless - he was a big man and I needed him on the floor, my husband tried to lift him with me shouting at him to pull his legs so he would slide off the chair. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt - at which point I took over and ripped it off, thumped him HARD on the chest and I spent 30 mins trying to resuscitate him on my own as the ambulance hadn't appeared! He was my friend and he was 39 years old - more guilt that I couldn't help him and began to doubt my practice too. The Paramedics said they wouldn't have managed to get him back even with a de-fib, but I still felt rather inadequate. The GP that came to certify the death asked me what the bloody hell I had been doing, but as I said I just couldn't leave him without trying ....

The following week funnily enough I could feel my BP had gone up so went to see said GP who said I want you in this afternoon - so in I went. My BP settled so asked to go back home but was told "you'll no be getting oot o here withoot a bairn in your arms, hen"! They gave me an internal to see whether my cervix had softened enough for induction, & I nearly stuck to the ceiling it was so painful! So I queried whether or not I would be able to get the very large 'bump' through there - after travelling in a taxi my nightie to another hospital for 'pelvimetry' it turned out that I wouldn't be able to and a consent form landed on my lap for a Caesarean Section - had that the following day - she cam out screaming and basically hasn't really stopped since .... I am absolutely certain that the stress I had during my pregnancy has had an impact on my daughter

I would tend to agree, MadeInYorkshire- That was a tremendous amount of stress-

HolyHannah, I skimmed some of the article. I don't honestly feel its necessary to read it all to understand the dynamics you are trying to describe. You have described those dynamics well.
I understand also what Smilesless means when she says she feels her experience is invalidated.
Estranged parents lose their child and their grandchildren. That causes pain beyond description.
Of course child abuse in all its forms causes pain beyond description.
But, not all parents of adult children who chose estrangement have subjected their children to the kind of abuse described by some estranged adult children here.
Listening and validating works all ways. Respect and compassion also.

It doesn’t have to be abuse.
It could just be unacceptable behaviours.

Bibbity, I don't understand the need for polarised comments like that. Maybe I misunderstood your post. Seriously, what kind of individual would estrange themselves from their adult child, or their parent because of "just unacceptable behaviours"

Well....a lot of people. Unacceptable behaviour is unacceptable.

We didn’t estrange because of abuse. MIL will screech to anyone what a wonderful mother she is.
But what she did was unacceptable.
And now she’s not in our lives.

Bibbity -- I agree.

All through my childhood my mum said "I love you but I don't like you" and child me always wondered how it was ever possible that she loved me if she didn't like me.

I guess people I love have some behaviours I don't like but I just don't love anyone I don't like in general.

Yes, it is a long article HolyHannah* and also informative.

The reference to 'objectionable relationships' was about parents objecting to relationships their AC developed, and if estrangement happened, the parents blaming the partner they'd already objected too.

There was no mention I could see where estrangement occurs when a relationship previously welcomed by the parents, and believed to be mutually 'good' and accepted, changed during the pregnancy of the first child, deteriorated following the birth of the child resulting in estrangement shortly afterwards.

This was our experience and one shared by many EP's. It doesn't fall into the category of 'objectionable relationships' as the EAC's relationship only becomes 'objectionable' and their partner held responsible for the estrangement, once the estrangement has happened.

I agree as well-

Unacceptable behavior can be determined by any person, for any reason-

It's up to the person with the unacceptable behavior to decide to refrain or not-

They may not think their behavior is unacceptable so decline to make adjustment/s- Which is fine- Whats not fine is them not accepting the results of their refusal-

Cant begin to tell you how many family gatherings had the above dynamic- All hell broke loose ..

I wonder if "like" is like a meter

Every time someone behaves in a way that hurts you and refuses to change it, that meter doesn't get fed and eventually you just run out of like.

It's quite normal for everyone isn't it? We all have a little less empathy, understanding and faith in people who behave in ways we don't like without any effort to change.

Acceptable relationships are subject to change- At any time- For infinite reasons-

People change dramatically after becoming parents- Behaviors deemed just fine at one time suddenly are taken into consideration and seen differently-

Throughout our sons lives we have told them we love because we do. We still tell our DS we love him and if we were able to talk to our ES, we would tell him the same.

Did communication not open again after the email Smileless? Just condolences?

People view love differently- Sometimes, actually a lot of times, I love yous arent enough-

rosecarmel -- Exactly. "They may not think their behavior is unacceptable so decline to make adjustment/s- Which is fine- Whats not fine is them not accepting the results of their refusal-" And for Me the result is continued No Contact.