Is 'No Contact' abuse?

Ironflower -- Exactly. Mentally happy parents have mentally stable children. The stress of a court case might well kill Me. That would be great for my husband and children... Not.

Threatening a married couple with court action is, in my opinion, about as unforgivable as it gets. Other reasons may apply but just to try to force a couples hand/contact? I consider that to be nothing but a pathetic power play and when the No Contact happens, those particular parents need to check the mirror. They are NOT being "abused" by No Contact.

I totally respect what you ladies are saying. And in the vast majority of cases it will be true. But I just dislike the implication that it is always true. It really only is the 'always' implication - or outright statements - that are causing the discussion to get a little divided.

Someone close to me suffered from Schizophrenia. 80% of the risk of that is genetic. Regardless of your upbringing if it is in your family you are at a higher risk of getting it (though of course upbringing can make a big difference to outcomes). Not all mental health problems are caused by upbringing. (add in biological changes to the brain due to disease and injury which can also cause serious mental health problems in some instances. Not to mention traumas in later life. Think the military, disaster survivers etc etc).

I personally know someone who would not be alive if family had not stepped in to remove her from her mother. Who was able to function with medication most of the time but was dangerous during a psychotic break. (it was a sister not grandparents that stepped in). And before you tell me that the doctors should have been dealing with this, the family were begging for help.
I've seen mentally ill people and their families let down many times by the system. One of them was only hospitalised after he somehow acquired a gun he was threatening his own children with. He later took his own life.
I don't for a second suggest that these cases are likely to rival the cases where AC have legitimately gone NC with their parents. Nor am I saying that your parents should come threatening you with anything. And I don't believe for a second that anyone should over-rule a parents rights unless it is absolutely right for the child(ren). And that great care should be taken by experts in that decision, because we know they can get things wrong.
It's merely the tone that suggests your case is the same as everyone else's. So many people, with so many issues visit these forums looking for help. I'm only asking we don't assume we know how it always is.

It really only is the 'always' implication - or outright statements - that are causing the discussion to get a little divided.

Exactly hugshelp That point has been raised quite a few times over many threads over quite a long time.

hugshelp -- Abusers lie. Their lies also have a consistent and recognizable tone.

When I hear parents talking like that, I have to assume that if their child is in a stable marriage, that the grand-parent is the 'issue'.

No Contact is not abuse. Especially when the EP has done something as egregious as threatening to take their own child to court.

Just like EP's/EGP's are free to call with-holding the grand-children child and elder abuse, I am free to say that most parents who end up estranged are "there" for good reasons and that doesn't make their child(ren) abusive toward them.

My thinking that no contact is not abuse is not assigning blame. Its not saying the person who has been estranged is the bad one.

To me abuse is bad things that happen within a relationship. No Contact is an end, not a beginning.

There is nothing sadder than a mother child relationship breaking down. If it does, both sides have to be willing to hear each other, both sides need to make the changes needed for each other to be comfortable and the expected changes have to work within the boundaries of a healthy mother child relationship.

If one of my children went No Contact with me I could:

A: Decide that no contact is abuse, that them estranging me was worse than any mistake I ever made, give all the blame to them, make no changes to myself and fail to grow as a person at all.

Or

B: Look deeply into the situation, look at times I may have made mistakes and my child as an individual and how it has impacted them, not worrying about whether I agree with the impact. If after deep soul searching I realised nothing I could do or say would change it, I'd work to move on and hope my child could do the same and be healthy and happy.

I know I would choose B because that is a variation of how I handled it with my mum. I just wasn't mum in that scenario. She chose A. Therefore, we are at stalemate.

I'm not telling anyone else how to think or feel. That's just how I think and feel about it.

If we see choose to see No Contact as abuse, if we convince others it's abuse, it may prevent the hearing of other relationships.

Healing of other relationships. Hearing is important tho lol

Starblaze -- I often forget that in most No Contact cases I hear of from AC is that they were being blamed/shamed long before No Contact.

So if most EAC's are the Scapegoats and already being blamed for the relationship issues, it stands to reason that the act of going No Contact itself would show one more 'defective quality' in their child(ren).

I guess that's why some EP's love to say things like, "They don't want to be around Us because they know they aren't at our level of decency..." and other such crap.

Yes, the reason we are No Contact is because we cannot 'handle' their overwhelming awesomeness...

HolyHannah I'm not taking issue whatsoever with your description of your situation, nor the fact that it is common to many. I have been abused. A lot. I know.
Nor do I think the act of going NC is abuse. I think it can be used abusively. Anything can.
I also think it sometimes happens for the wrong reasons, and if in those cases if GP decide to take all recourse to stop that, they may occasionally be right. I'm not going to comment on anyone else's reasons for doing what they did because I know I won't get the full story from a few posts and I wasn't there.
But my problem is when you said, Mentally happy parents have mentally stable children
As though everything that ever goes wrong is always down to the parents.
I have a friend whose son was in the military. All was well until he was sent to a war zone. He had to carry his best friend, minus his legs, to the military ambulance. He had to take the wedding ring from a friend who was dying, who wanting it passing with his last message to his wife. And a lot, lot more.
He has young children. Up till then they saw GM regularly. He suddenly had a big argument with his mum, and said she was 'out of my life.' Because he was acting out of character she spoke to his wife, the army, etc etc. Long story short she ended up sitting up nights holding him while he fitfully slept, in between waking up screaming. Supervising him taking his medication, etc etc. At one point he started saying he could hear voices telling him to kill people. He now says he owes his life, and probably that of his family to his mum, who he tried to cut out.
Bad mum was she? His mental illness her fault? The doctors diagnosed battle psychosis.

Lots of good points there Starblaze. I think most EP on here have soul-searched many times wondering what they did wrong.

Nodding and laughing Holyhannah

Things break children and things break adult children that aren't always in a parents control but that's not child or adult child's fault either

hugshelp -- You are rather comparing apples to oranges...

"The doctors diagnosed battle psychosis." What he has is called C-PTSD and was acquired from combat. Obviously that is a completely different scenario to mental illness/illnesses that are acquired from childhood abuse.

"Bad mum was she? His mental illness her fault?" -- How should I know if she was a 'good' mom and how is that relevant to what I said?

What I have said is, IF two emotionally healthy parents are married and decide to go No Contact that should be the end of the conversation and they shouldn't be labeled "abusive".

Of course it's not the ACs fault if life breaks them starblaze
Surely saying it's not always the parents fault, doesn't suggest I think that mean's it is the child's fault? I never think the child is to blame. EVER. There are some things I will accept as unconditionally always correct.
But, children can get mental illnesses that are not the fault of the parent either. 1% of people get schizophrenia, and I will mention again that is 80% genetic.

HolyHannah are you medically qualified? As you seem to have overruled the diagnosis made by his qualified doctors.

If you can't see how my examples relates to your blanket statements I can only assume we have communication styles that are too diverse. I'm really not trying to pick arguments with anything you are saying merely point out how they can feel wrong to others if they are applied as a blanket statement.

hugshelp really not suggesting you think that at all, I'm just typing all my thoughts on it when I comment.

I don't blame my mum for what happened to me at the hands of a different abuser.

It's an important thought for me to have, understand why:

I was an innocent child and I blamed myself for what happened to me for a long time. That I must have done something to deserve it or I must be faulty or being punished by the universe, or just dirty somehow.

I now know that I wasn't to blame.

Starblaze I have walked your path, am still walking your path. I have been emotionally, physically and sexually abused. Raped. Etc. I blamed myself. For it all. Some bits I still do, occasionally. It has been a long hard path. I know how easy it is to hear, 'it's not my fault' as 'therefore it's yours'.

Then I blamed my parents and other abusers. And still do. To an extent.

Then I realised my parents were a products of theirs. And the ones before them. And society. And many other things. And I don't just mean acknowledged it intellectually but really got it. Am still getting it. New realisations daily. And I'm an old biddy.

Removing yourself from the people who are hurting you so you can heal is absolutely right. And I can absolutely see you moving forward and healing. Sending loving wishes that your journey may be ever more healing as I continue on my own.

hugshelp -- I know the term "combat psychosis" is antiquated and has been replaced by the diagnosis C-PTSD of which psychosis can be an element of.

Because C-PTSD has many manifestations/symptoms and terms like "shell-shock" and "combat psychosis" only touch on part of the mental trauma, that is why the definition was changed.

I also know a little about C-PTSD as I have it myself and I didn't get 'it' from war...

hugshelp

HolyHannah I'm surprised to hear it is antiquated as this was only a couple of years ago.
It may have changed recently, but doctors often use terms interchangeably, and sometimes some differentiate between old and new terms in some cases. Some doctors will challenge the theory and new terminology as medicine, as much else, is always changing.
There's consensus, and there's that always thing again.

Really good posts hugshelp.

"I'm not going to comment on anyone else's reasons for doing what they did because I know I wont get the full story from a few posts and I wasn't there."

Something that everyone should think about before assuming they know another posters full back story which of course they don't regardless of the number of posts they have made.

Mentally stable parents have mentally stable children I agree hugshelp that that suggests that an AC with mental health problems didn't have mentally stable parents, and as your post @ 14.18 demonstrates, that blanket statement isn't true.

"I think most EP here have sole searched many times wondering what they did wrong" and for some that's only OK if they say that something they did or said was the reason for their estrangement.

It's not OK for an EP to say that having done a lot of sole searching that they can, in all honesty say they didn't do or say anything to cause their estrangement.

You know I'm thinking there really is a communication problem here. I'm going to try and articulate what I think but I'm not sure if I'll get it across properly. So please don't think this is an attack on anyone.

When I see, 'I think, I feel....' I know I am being given an opinion.

When I see, 'Usually, generally, normally, sometimes, often....' I think either, I am either being given a fact which is backed up by stats, but which will have exceptions OR an opinion based on the persons observations which they believe to be correct but do acknowledge isn't always true.

When I see, 'x is how it is' with no modifiers I see a blanket statement which is being applied to everything, all the time, it's a fact, I'm right, anything else is wrong.

Not sure where I'm going with that, just throwing it out there.

merely point out how they can feel wrong to others if they are applied as a blanket statement.

Exactly, I agree hugshelp. You are expressing very well the importance of avoiding blanket statements and of careful use of language in general to avoid unnecessary argument, which I think no one enjoys and usually results in frustration.

When I see, 'I think, I feel....' I know I am being given an opinion.

When I see, 'Usually, generally, normally, sometimes, often....' I think either, I am either being given a fact which is backed up by stats, but which will have exceptions OR an opinion based on the persons observations which they believe to be correct but do acknowledge isn't always true.

When I see, 'x is how it is' with no modifiers I see a blanket statement which is being applied to everything, all the time, it's a fact, I'm right, anything else is wrong.

Again, an excellent summary of the differences in expression that, in my view, cause endless problems on threads.

I'm usually pretty careful not to use blanket statements, get told off anyway lol

That is brilliantly worded starblaze

I'm usually pretty careful not to use blanket statements,

Yes I agree, you are.

hugshelp I agree with Madgran you've summarised it perfectly.