Hope For Estranged Grandparents

In the context of this discussion, no one is saying that GP's are or should be the "official deciders"*HolyHannah*. And what you think the core issue that isn't being addressed here, is being addressed.

The court decides, the court is the official decider and the court has the right/authority to tell P's they are wrong by awarding contact to GP's whose contact has been denied when that decision by the parents is unjustified.

Psychological assessments are a good idea. My brother used to say it was a pity prospective parents don't have to undergo tests before they have children because of some of the awful cases he was involved with during his career.

I dispute that the person with the most money is more likely to win a court case when it comes to GP's being awarded contact Ironflower. The success rate is relatively low and many GP's fail to get leave from the courts to go to court in the first place. My brother who practised family law for his entire career would also dispute that it's the side with the most money that has the better chance of winning.

Solicitors tend to tell GP's that their chances of winning are low when they first seek legal advice.

As for the financial cost to parents, that and a great deal of stress caused by a legal process can be avoided by simply allowing the relationship between their children and their GP's to continue.

As has been said over and over again on this thread, it's the responsibility of all adults involved to do what's best for the children. It isn't just GP's who make a choice here. They may choose to try and get their application to court, but the parents have decided to prevent them from seeing their GC.

"Children will be upset about things that upset them and their parents" of course, and one of the things that will upset children is suddenly losing their GP's.

If abuse in not the issue, if parents have decided for reasons that have nothing to do with protecting the welfare of their children, it's up to them to keep any negative feelings they have about their children seeing their GP's, away from their children.

"No responsible parent would let a child be upset by adult worries" and I would add to that Granniesunite or by any animosity they feel toward a child's GP's resulting in making a child feel guilty and/or uncomfortable by wanting to spend time with their GP's.

Granniesunite -- "Court could be just the place for resolution."

What is to "resolve"? We went No Contact from both sides prior to our children being born. Neither set of grand-parents have met our children.

I stated earlier what I would tell a court if both sides tried to petition for visitation. Thankfully, where we live, no relationship with Us (the parents) and no 'established relationship' with the children means ZERO chance of them being successful. The 'courts' wouldn't even allow the case to move forward.

Unfortunately that is not the case everywhere.

Granniesunite -- "We’re talking at cross purposes then. Because this thread is about a real, reasoned, response to loving grandparents wishes to continue with a loving relationship with their grandchildren. Not in anyway controlling or abusive on their part. Just everyday people who love their offsprings children."

And my mom and MiL would say the same of themselves and as Nonnie pointed out to me, the fact that I have no contact with either side makes it look like I am the issue.

So are my mom and MiL 'wonderful and loving' parents as they claim and our No Contact = abuse OR are they abusers like We see them? How can anyone tell the difference if good and bad EP's and EGP's say the same things?

Sorry Holy Hannah your situation sounds sad and I’m sorry that you have experienced that in Your life.

I hope if you are still experiencing these difficulties with your family that you have the help you need to get by.

Court could be just the place for resolution.

Granniesunte -- Really? So for those of us who have things like C-PTSD are supposed to make like everything is perfect while we are being accosted yet again, by our abusers?

If we are unable to do that then we are failing as parents?

What about the harm and stress to Us as parents? Healthy and happy parents can raise strong and healthy children. Creating chaos for the parents is harming the children. Any energy I have to use to protect myself from outside influences/stressors is less energy I have to focus on loving my children.

That hurts the children. So anyone who says, "Court cases could be beneficial in some cases." is ignoring all the 'not beneficial' side effects that can result.

"No responsible parent would let a child be upset by adult worries." -- Children will be upset about things that upset them and their parents. Even if the children 'don't know' what mom and dad are "upset about" the strain would be obvious to them.

No. Abusers are abusers ironflower.

Read my other posts they do make mistakes .

Harm I refer to is the stress of court action by the adults in their lives. No responsible parent would let a child be upset by adult worries.

Financial worries yes very difficult. Not sure what country your are in but I know from experience in my country that help would be given.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough.

Granniesunite, you're reaction to a parent stressed, scared and financially ruined and facing the prospect of having to hand over their children unsupervised to someone who physically, emotionally and sexually abused them is that they aren't responsible if they can't pretend everything is fine? :O

You also didn't talk about the financial strain. You also referred to court action as harm.

Iron flower.

Responsible parents would never let a child know the stressful details of a potential court action.
Responsible parents will always protects their children from harm. No matter what.

Yes Miss A that is a real possibility.
Abusers are cunning. But they do make mistakes.

I read somewhere recently, or an advert I saw, that if you think a child is in danger of physical abuse you should intervene.

I agree totally with that. Any kind of abuse . Difficult I know. But to stand by and watch a child being abused used especially by someone who should protect them, is tantamount to incitement. In my book.

This is a terrible time for a lot of children and I've been trying to distract myself from that and now I realise I'm just talking about a different facet of the issues children face.

Might be time to log out again for a bit.

The one really big point I want to debate here is that suing the parents for visitation does cause harm to the children. The ways in which it does:
- Financial Harm - Parents may not be able to afford after school activities
- Stressed out parents - It's hard to be 100% when you are stressed out of your mind.

If you choose to take the route, you will cause some sort of stress or hardship on your grandchildren.

Here is just one story of thousands on just one website of grandparent rights from the other perspective: www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/5p5ebl/im_being_sued_for_grandparents_rights_from_my/

It also highlights another important fact, the person in court most likely to win is the one with the most money. If one side has a lawyer and the other side doesn't, you are much less likely to win. Grandparents using decades of saved money over new adults to force their wills on them is not okay.

I would also welcome that for any newcomer in children's lives. (New boyfriends, friends etc.)

It's all a bit "big brother" though.

Yes I’d agree to that. Of course that would be acceptable.

Dogs trust interviews potential owners so yes that makes sense.

In fact to be honest I think that in the case of divorce the children of the marriage should be monitored and counselled till teenage years. One way of keeping abusive adults in line.

When our children go back to school, university after this lockdown counselling will be available to them

I suppose someone very manipulative could use assessments to their own advantage, put on an act, put the boot in "accidentally"..

I think it would certainly put off parents like mine from ever risking going to court. She wouldn't come to counselling with me, I expect she knew that someone educated/experienced in abuse can spot a abuser very quickly.

It doesn't fix all the other ways court cases can have a negative impact or make going into the process without knowing what the impact would be any better but it would be a start.

It would turn the whole thing into a bit of a circus though, I suppose.

Very true

Sounds reasonable enough to me.
I think if more of those kinds of assessments were done, we would have a hell of a lot less children killed.

Same question to you MissA

GranniesUnite I previously suggested some methods that could be used by the courts to check the suitability of grandparent to have access to children. Perhaps the same rigorous process that adoptive parents and Foster parents go through. Psychological assessments would be a good thing too. In any case where parents are saying the grandparents aren't suitable.

What do you think would be appropriate?

Exactly.Miss A.

Emotional abuse was hard to identify. But bullies will always make mistakes.

Me too have proved that.

There will always be manipulative, cruel people, I agree, and I have heard tales of many, where nobody would have ever dreamed what was going on.
I honestly don't know what the answer is, and how it could ever be failsafe, but that shouldn't stop children from having non abusive relatives in their lives.

MissAdventure -- In what way are they all different?

As far as I can see, most of the situations are very similar.

Grand-parents believe they know what is best for their grand-children and should get to decide what the parents should do. Parents that do not share that view often go No Contact.

The grand-parents then often claim that parents wanting to raise their children their way by going No Contact is abuse to their parents and children.

Our parents wanted to control Us instead of raising Us. We want to raise our children not control them. I certainly don't want my 'parents' using courts to control me to force their 'love' on innocent children. My 'mom's "love" made me suicidal.

The core issue then, parents telling their adult children how to live their lives and the lives of their children.?

We’re talking at cross purposes then. Because this thread is about a real, reasoned, response to loving grandparents wishes to continue with a loving relationship with their grandchildren. Not in anyway controlling or abusive on their part. Just everyday people who love their offsprings children.