Father removes 9 yr old daughter from school over sex ed lessons

I don't think people do consider the forum unable to discuss the curriculum, wherever the OP came from,*galaxy*. What does make it difficult is the knee-jerk reactions we see, particularly from those who accept the DM and many such sources as giving factual information.

You have to admit most drop out when the sensationalised version is replaced by fact.

What I don't want to see is families pulling their children out of very important lessons covering things like

Friendships
Relationships
Consent
Puberty
Online safety
Mental health

Or anything else involved in the protection of children and their physical and emotional well-being because of a headline that isn't representative of what is actually happening in schools

VioletSky

What I don't want to see is families pulling their children out of very important lessons covering things like

Friendships
Relationships
Consent
Puberty
Online safety
Mental health

Or anything else involved in the protection of children and their physical and emotional well-being because of a headline that isn't representative of what is actually happening in schools

I think most would agree with you.

And as 'agitated' as some of us might be about what we consider to be age inappropriate - I believe most of us are aware that the sensational headlines and tags in the tabloids can be taken with a degree of pinched salt.

There is always more to the story than is told.

My late ex OH was once interviewed by a newspaper reporter on a work-related incident - what he / we said, and what was reported subsequently in that particular newspaper has left me with a profound distrust of everything I read. The reporter couldn't even get his job-title and trade right... my OH was a Thames Waterman and Lighterman - when the article was printed, he was, apparently, a "Butcher" by trade 😲

The knee jerk reactions also come from whenever people see the Mail or even the times now (except when it suits their purpose of course) many of us are quite capable of being aware of some of these issues (womens groups have recently produced guidance which is being used in many schools because of some of the concerns of around sex education) without being influenced by the Mail.

Dickens, there is some truth in the view you express in your post of Sun 23-Jul-23 10:15:16, but I think it gives a romantic view of history.

If you were born any time before the 1900s and were poor or even today in those circumstances, life could be very dangerous. Not only that but for women, marriage itself could be a traumatic shock.

What has always happened has moved to include the Internet. We have become more accepting of knowledge, rather than threats, as a way of protecting our children and young people.

Those who seem to believe this is not a subject for discussion but for an opinion which is then treated as truth, take us back to the days when family members could be thrown out of their homes, shunned by their religion and where often the victim was blamed for their victimisation. Such authoritarianism is still alive and hung on to by many.

A Zen saying "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water", shows the only difference is how you view those tasks. I feel we are more enlightened than ever in our approach to this issue. What a pity some still use it as a stick to beat others with.

because of a headline that isn't representative of what is actually happening in schools

Is it representative?
A lot of parents dont seem to know.
Which is part of the point of what the article is saying.

It also makes a headline for all sorts of different reasons too.

Parents not being easily able to find out what is being taught to their children is alarming.

Doodledog

Galaxy

I am also vaguely concerned about the inability of people to see that we are able to have a discussion on the curriculum even if the story came from the daily mail. I have thirty years experience in safeguarding, I have been involved in discussions around sex education for some time, in the last few years feminist groups have been raising very serious concerns about stereotypes within sex education, issues of consent etc.

It's all part of the shutting down of alternative views that has become so prevalent these days. Rubbishing sources without checking whether the story is printed elsewhere, calling people 'gullible' for discussing things (which can be done whether an OP is based on a watertight story or not) and suggesting that people want to hide from uncomfortable truths (with the implicit suggestion that this is because of being older and out of touch) - these tactics are the same whether the topic is changing 'gender' or sex education, and others besides.

Saying you wouldn't believe anything if it's in the Mail (or the Sun, or anywhere much) is as blinkered as believing everything you read there or anywhere else. It's a question of balance and of checking the story (and considering the political view of the source), not just writing things (or posters) off.

I think it is also so that the person can easily dismiss and not think things through for themselves.

Also they may not want truths to come out.

They may have an agenda.

And mainly, I think it is because they dont want to know things that may conflict with whatever thoughts they already have. Too uncomfortable.

Perhaps a new thread is more appropriate about this topic than the current one.
Was thinking of starting one sometime. Not sure. You do it Doodledog?

I will be asking my DD what my 5 and 8 year old GC are being taught!

VioletSky

What I don't want to see is families pulling their children out of very important lessons covering things like

Friendships
Relationships
Consent
Puberty
Online safety
Mental health

Or anything else involved in the protection of children and their physical and emotional well-being because of a headline that isn't representative of what is actually happening in schools

Who would pull their pupil out of most of that list?

Unless they home school already
Which seems to be happening at an increasing rate in the Uk.

Parents not being easily able to find out what is being taught to their children is alarming.

Should be on any school’s curriculum documents on their website by subject content and year group.
If it isn’t, see the head who will direct you to the documents and discuss if you want to do so. Become a school governor and ask questions.
Doesn’t take any more time than reading the DM or following internet threads and complaining about what others have posted as the truth.

DaisyAnneReturns

*Dickens*, there is some truth in the view you express in your post of Sun 23-Jul-23 10:15:16, but I think it gives a romantic view of history.

If you were born any time before the 1900s and were poor or even today in those circumstances, life could be very dangerous. Not only that but for women, marriage itself could be a traumatic shock.

What has always happened has moved to include the Internet. We have become more accepting of knowledge, rather than threats, as a way of protecting our children and young people.

Those who seem to believe this is not a subject for discussion but for an opinion which is then treated as truth, take us back to the days when family members could be thrown out of their homes, shunned by their religion and where often the victim was blamed for their victimisation. Such authoritarianism is still alive and hung on to by many.

A Zen saying "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water", shows the only difference is how you view those tasks. I feel we are more enlightened than ever in our approach to this issue. What a pity some still use it as a stick to beat others with.

... er, OK ... thanks!

Not sure where the "romantic view of history" comes from though!

Originating from a very lowly working class background and experiencing first hand some of its deprivations (culturally as well as financially); and a keen 'student' of Marx and Engels (The Condition of the Working Class) - I have little in the way of "romantic" notions about life pre and after 1900!

I think the internet is a brilliant resource - and there's no reason why its material shouldn't be "challenging" and touch on matters that are controversial, even unnerving for some (including me).

However - like all technological advances, it can be used for good or ill, as I believe you also pointed out somewhere on another thread.

Now I'm not the arbiter of whether pornography is good or bad - it might be both, who knows. But there are certainly aspects of it that are questionable in terms of the actual physical well-being of the participants, particularly women who might have been coerced, and, with the best will in the world, it is hard to not see that some of it is plainly misogynistic, dehumanising, and (so I'm told - I refuse to look) quite brutal.

Of course, porn is as old as the hills and it's not going to go away... and who am I to say it's all bad, anyway... but it's how we manage it as a recreational pass time, art-form, entertainment, or even as a therapeutic tool, whatever, that is important. I just happen to believe that it's become so pervasive and intrusive that it has ultimately led to a position where we now have to mentally and emotionally 'arm' children so they are not damaged by it. The age of internet porn has brought challenges, and one of those is its accessibility, and whether people are equipped to deal with some of the extremes of it that are so easily tapped into.

We restrict alcohol, drugs - we try to limit exposure to gratuitous violence in films etc - to protect children. Considering the nature of some pornographic material, I don't see why we can't have a discussion about doing the same with that. At the moment, it (porn) seems to be indirectly setting the agenda to some extent of what is and isn't included in sex education. That's my 'beef'. But, if I come across as giving a "romantic view of history" - well, I'll just have to live with it !

Mollygo

*Parents not being easily able to find out what is being taught to their children is alarming.*

Should be on any school’s curriculum documents on their website by subject content and year group.
If it isn’t, see the head who will direct you to the documents and discuss if you want to do so. Become a school governor and ask questions.
Doesn’t take any more time than reading the DM or following internet threads and complaining about what others have posted as the truth.

The subject being complained about, some or not all is curriculum.
There is no set curriculum it appears.
Which is part of the problem.

Hence people complaining.

What you talk about used to be the case.

And I used to be a primary school governor. As it happens.

I used to help and update the documents.
They used to be updated every year.
There were about 32 of them, and we used to update 7 or 8 per year.

But what the dad in the op is complaining about, is, on this particular subject at least, it doesnt work like that now.

There is a curriculum.
Whether schools adhere to it is a different problem. For your school, or a school you are interested in, use the internet to investigate or ask the head / teachers/ governors. This especially applies if your child or child’s friend expressed concern.

Here is a far more balanced article that doesn't feature a minor and has views from other parents who support the school and claim they were informed about the impending lessons

www.suffolknews.co.uk/bury-st-edmunds/news/father-vows-to-remove-eight-year-old-daughter-from-school-ov-9319335/

Taken from the op link

Michael Doherty, 50, from Suffolk, was shocked by what he saw when teachers at Thurston Primary School finally allowed him to see teaching materials intended for his nine-year-old daughter - after weeks of not allowing him access.

VioletSky

Here is a far more balanced article that doesn't feature a minor and has views from other parents who support the school and claim they were informed about the impending lessons

www.suffolknews.co.uk/bury-st-edmunds/news/father-vows-to-remove-eight-year-old-daughter-from-school-ov-9319335/

I have an ad blocker, so personally cannot read that.

VioletSky

Here is a far more balanced article that doesn't feature a minor and has views from other parents who support the school and claim they were informed about the impending lessons

www.suffolknews.co.uk/bury-st-edmunds/news/father-vows-to-remove-eight-year-old-daughter-from-school-ov-9319335/

To add

How can it possibly be "disturbing" for a child to know what the parts of her own body are called?

Also it doesn't appear the daughter was disturbed... But now her name and face are all over the internet my concern would be bullying should she join social media in future

Galaxy

The knee jerk reactions also come from whenever people see the Mail or even the times now (except when it suits their purpose of course) many of us are quite capable of being aware of some of these issues (womens groups have recently produced guidance which is being used in many schools because of some of the concerns of around sex education) without being influenced by the Mail.

Agreed. It’s irritating- particularly when dressed up as a superior understanding of the media and how they work. It really is just an attempt to control the agenda.

Perhaps a new thread is more appropriate about this topic than the current one.
Was thinking of starting one sometime. Not sure. You do it Doodledog?
No, you go ahead. I don’t want to misrepresent what you are thinking.

VS I don’t think anyone on here has objected to children learning about body parts, or suggested that children be taken out of classes about friendship or anything else on your list. There is a huge gap between that and a discussion of specific sexual acts though.

Thank you for the article, VS.

I'm glad this thread has become a bit more sensible and moved to actual facts about what is really taught and when to children from ages 4 to 16.

This man has moved his child out of school permanently in order to avoid what is coming, not what is happening now in Y4. (The simple labelling of body parts and impending changes in puberty)

Schools do a lot to protect and safeguard our children and the thoughts previously brought into this thread about education somehow enabling pedophilia is possibly the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen on discussion of sex education.

I wish safeguarding and PSHE education had existed earlier because we all know the awful statistics on childhood sexual abuse and whatever work we can do to prevent it and save children from trauma is so massively important.

It's a balancing act for schools definitely to ensure children have the right information at the right times in the age of the internet and childhood curiosity being too easily satisfied from too many dangerous sources

However as a parent who has children ranging from adult to higher education and in secondary and primary... I've been pleased with increasing importance placed on safeguarding across all issues and that many schools work so hard in childrens best interests no matter how difficult the topic

. . . the thoughts previously brought into this thread about education somehow enabling pedophilia is possibly the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen on discussion of sex education.
Nobody said that sex education would enable paedophilia 🙄. People said that ‘making children understand what is enjoyable’ is a dangerous way to do it, which is a very different thing.

https://signal-corridor.live/uploads/talk/202307/medium-977287-screenshot-20230723-141025.png%3C/span%3E https://signal-corridor.live/uploads/talk/202307/medium-435755-screenshot-20230723-141017.png%3C/span%3E

Actual comment I am referring too

Let's put aside those discussing being led by headlines and not being aware of actual ages certain lessons are presented... All just as available online as daft headlines

The first and most fundamental thing all schools teach is that children cannot give consent

Learning about consent by definition means learning who can and cannot give it. I can't say this strongly enough the meaning of learning about consent is learning what consent is and when it can and can't be given.

Children are taught how to stay safe online or in person long before they learn anything about sex itself.

Appropriate ages for certain ideas have been tailored towards ages children may be exposed to external information and ages children may start to experiment themselves. And yes we need to each children by a certain age that sex should not be uncomfortable or scary. But we should have already taught them consent long before this point.

It's all in the links I shared earlier and it's all very self explanatory

Ive asked for the extra picture to be deleted, could have been worse I suppose