State schools and Question time

Angela Rayner, shadow Secretary of State for Education sends her children to state schools not private.

If you live in a grammar school area, if they pass the exam they'll go to a grammar school regardless of their parents' jobs. However these days, entry to grammar schools seems to depend a lot on cramming beforehand, rather than the debunked idea of IQ. In UK, we struggle to measure educational potential.

I'm sure there are UK schools that are not so good, Jalima, but my friend's experience is that no schools in her part of Germany offer anything but a regimented regime. Even if she chose a different school it have that same ethos.

They're not very keen on parental involvement, either.

The ethos of most modern comprehensives is to be inclusive. This applies especially to large schools. Children who a generation ago would have been segregated into small special schools are now integrated as far as possible. This seems to work well for most children with physical disabilities or special educational needs, especially if they are supported by learning assistants.

Where it does not always work so well is with children who are severely disturbed, to the extent of persistent nasty bullying and disrupting classes. The school then has to go through a strict protocol of escalating sanctions, often culminating in exclusion.

Thank you SueDonim - although I will say that perhaps the British comprehensive system cannot always cope with a child who challenges the norms - I don't mean not helping those with disabilities but expanding the horizons for those who wish to explore opportunities outside the prescribed curriculum.

Jalima, I have a friend with children going through the German education system. She says it's very rigid and they cannot cope with a child who challenges the norms. The child must fit the system, the system will not flex to accommodate the child.

Obviously that is just one area of Germany and can't be extrapolated to represent the entire country but she doesn't think it's a system to be emulated.

I believe that in Italy all children go to the same schools till they are eighteen. Although they go on to do different things they do form lasting friendships with people of all classes because they've always known each other.

MargaretX how is secondary schooling set up in Germany? I'm sure I remember hearing something on tv here about there being three types of school - grammar schools, technical schools and general secondary schools, and the pupils attend the schools which best suits their aptitudes and ability.
Do children sit a type of 11+ examination or do they apply to the school which best suits them?

Or, is it not as I've described the system?

On the continent there is not this feeling that you have to be educated privately; this is attached to the class system and runs down from the aristocracy that the UK still has.

All countries have problem schools and problem children but there has to be more money available in a rich country
to improve schools and that means fewer tablets and lap tops and more real teaching.

You can't keep on about some children being clever and the others are good with their hands. what a load of rubbish. Clever children are often better with their hands than other children, but slow childen have to be checked that they can read and write and add up, before moving up the school, and extra teaching should be provided.

My DDs are both not badly off but if they sold their cars and went on no holidays they still could not manage 20,000 for each child's private schooling.

When my children were at school I noticed that if there were meetings about school policy only a handful of parents were either interested or articulate enough to argue against some of the school's choices. Some of us hadn't been able to afford private school fees and some refused to send their children there on principle, but most just went along with what the governors said. I imagine private schools get more parental input.

Jalima1108 - it is often the middle sets that are neglected; some of these pupils are capable of grade B and above
This used to be the case, but when league tables began to count the number of pupils with grade C, heads started targetting the just below C students.
Of course GCSEs have changed now. But I suspect there will still be the pressure to focus on children who are almost acheiving an average mark.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with parents sending their children to public schools.
me neither - and I would downsize or do whatever it takes to enable my DGC to have a good start in life; however, their parents believe in the comprehensive system and that is fair enough as I believe the local school will be a good one; there are no grammar schools where they live.

I should have continued - it is often the middle sets that are neglected; some of these pupils are capable of grade B and above but the resources are often deployed to those expected to achieve A* and A and those who need extra help.

clever children can sometimes be difficult to handle.
especially if they are not stretched and get bored. Yes, they can find all kinds of tricks to distract an inexperienced teacher.

Come on trisher it’s hypocracy of the highest order for Labour MP’s to send their children to private schools.

I have no objection at all to private schools, if parents have the money, why shouldn’t they? As long as they are not the kind of Islington parents who trumpet the values of socialism of course.

If all private schools closed down, the children would have to go to the local comp, thus adding even more to the burden of state schools.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with parents sending their children to public schools.
If we could afford it we would pay for our GC to go. We can’t so we have to do what we can to encourage him to develop a range of interests that may stand him in good stead in the future.
We hope that our local schools, not much choice here, will continue to be of a good standard in the future.
Wouldn’t it just be amazing though if one of these politicians was just honest enough to say it like it is.
To state that - although comprehensives can be fantastic some aren’t and I ( insert name of choice) am not going to take a chance with my child. Sorry you don’t have the same choice but, hey, that’s life.
As far as teaching upper and lower sets, I think the head tries to give all teachers a mixture but I may be wrong.
I hope this makes sense.

There can be mobility between sets. DGD was disgusted with her SATs Maths result which put her in a low set in Y7. She decided this was not good enough so worked her socks off. Now in Y10, she is in the top set. She doesn't get the maths gene from me!

Not exactly Grandma70s clever children can sometimes be difficult to handle. But there is no doubt that dealing with the complex difficulties found in lower ability sets is very demanding, unfortunately young inexperienced teachers are sometimes landed with the job. Although some schools now put their best teachers with the middle sets in order to make sure everyone gets a grade c.

trisher, I'd have thought teaching very bright children in the top sets and teaching low-ability children in the bottom sets were two different arts and would require very different teaching skills. I shouldn’t think many teachers would be equally good at both.

We ended up privately educating our children because of a labour government! It was at a time when (theoretically!) it was possible to choose the achool your children went to - I think dh still Haa the letter from our local lea saying that our reasons were not acceptable.

Our reasons

We did not like open plan schools - apparently, all schools were to become open plan within 5 years.

We wanted our children to go to a school that had some form of uniform policy. All schools had a uniform which our children could chose to wear - despite the fact none of the others did.

And we didn't like the use of Christian names for staff.

The Director of education told dh privately that middle class parents never got first choice schools.

Yes, it was Michael Gove. A Minister for Education who didn't even understand what average meant.

I saw the BBC programme. It was about one grammar school, one sec. mod. Both seemed pretty awful to me, though I expect the editing didn’t give a full picture. I was shocked that the children were told their exact 11+ marks, so they knew if they were in or out by only one or two marks.

Wasn't it Michael Gove who said all children should be above average?
Anyone seen that BBC2 series on Grammar schools - that would put anyone off.

As far as staff goes there is usually a bit of competition to get a top set. Lower sets can be hard to manage.

Schools saw a rapid improvement under the last Labour gov. Does no one remember the classrooms shown before the general election with rain leaking through ceilings and children sitting with their coats on?

In our high school when my daughters went there children were placed in forms according to results achieved in Junior school. When my grandchildren went there children were streamed in academic subjects, good at English streamed in group 1, not good at English streamed from 4 to 2, as children improved they went up a grade