We need to take control

Your point about right to life against right to freedom of expression is a good one Growstuff. But I don't think they need to be mutually exclusive. Maybe we need a thread on human rights .

Unlike Namsnanny I do think its relevant to speak about it on this thread since the OP included the sentence To hell with personal Liberty

Namsnanny

^If a change in the law is needed bring it on!^

I may very well agree with you (in this instance) if that was the outcome!

BUT, I dont like knee jerk reactions by invested parties when it comes to changing civil liberties.

I don't like irresponsible people flouting the law and creating links in a chain which can cause death. Surveys have shown that the majority of transmission is taking place within people's homes and is passed from and to visitors.

I have never known so much concern for civil liberties. Maybe they only matter when they affect people personally.

I agree with most of what you've posted today MaizieD. Just to be clear, I support stricter measures. Close places of worship, restrict non-essential shops for instance.

I don't support people who say that we should be more like China and that our rights don't matter.

MaizieD

China is not the only country which has dealt with covid in a quite draconian fashion. If you don't like/believe what they are saying there are plenty of other successful countries you can look at.

Please don't use disbelief in what is being said by China as an excuse for not supporting stricter, but more successful, measures.

Is anyone saying that?

Have I said that?

Please dont infer, just read the posts carefully.

If a change in the law is needed bring it on!

I may very well agree with you (in this instance) if that was the outcome!

BUT, I dont like knee jerk reactions by invested parties when it comes to changing civil liberties.

China is not the only country which has dealt with covid in a quite draconian fashion. If you don't like/believe what they are saying there are plenty of other successful countries you can look at.

Please don't use disbelief in what is being said by China as an excuse for not supporting stricter, but more successful, measures.

Lewie

The OP was holding China up as an example (against the UK) - which is presumably why other posters have mentioned it subsequently.

Can anybody honestly believe any information that comes out of China after what has happened?

That's right Lewie be cause it was included by others I passed comment
Well within the constraints of the original post.

growstuff ...the human rights issue, etc., doesn't belong on this thread, and therefore I havent approached it.
China lying to the WHO is pertinent, so I did.

The OP was holding China up as an example (against the UK) - which is presumably why other posters have mentioned it subsequently.

Can anybody honestly believe any information that comes out of China after what has happened?

Namsnanny

If that was the case growstuff there wouldn't need to be a change in the law.

If a change in the law is needed, bring it on!

Namsnanny

Maizyd leave the recriminations till later

These are facts not supposition or recriminations.
Said in relation to another posters comments on how well China is doing at controlling the virus.
I'm.just pointing out that its impossible to compare us with China when they havent told the truth.

I care very much about human rights abuses in China, especially in Hong Kong and against the Uighurs. However, I really couldn't give a monkeys about how China is controlling coronavirus. Their country, their methods. Leave them to it.

One of my current students is from mainland China. When the pandemic first started, I remember she told me about her grandparents (with whom she's in touch via social media), who weren't allowed to leave their flat apart from going shopping and for medical appointments. The grandparents (and great grandparents) just accepted it and weren't suffering.

EllanVannin
Here's a little light reading for you. fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2015/handbook-european-law-relating-rights-child

If that was the case growstuff there wouldn't need to be a change in the law.

Maizyd leave the recriminations till later

These are facts not supposition or recriminations.
Said in relation to another posters comments on how well China is doing at controlling the virus.
I'm.just pointing out that its impossible to compare us with China when they havent told the truth.

Sorry, haven’t read any replies, but have noticed there’s another thread running about booking holidays!!?. I feel like I’m living in a time warp. It doesn’t make sense. I said ages ago on here, we need troops on the streets. It does seem there are areas where restrictions could improve. Close airports, absolutely no shops open except for food. Only essentials coming in via road,rail or sea. However, it’s never going to matter what the government does when we have so many morons living in this country.

Namsnanny

^why is it different?^
Because the police had sufficient evidence (noise and complaints from the neighbours) to warrant such an action.
The suggestion is entry can be made without prior knowledge of provocation.

Presumably the police will only enter a premises if the household has been reported. If the people inside are breaking the law, there are grounds to enter the house and the people deserve what they get.

Apparently, in one of the poorest areas of Liverpool, where infection rates were/are highest, only 4% of people volunteered for tests. They knew that if they tested positive, they wouldn't be able to afford not to work.

why is it different?
Because the police had sufficient evidence (noise and complaints from the neighbours) to warrant such an action.
The suggestion is entry can be made without prior knowledge of provocation.

MaizieD

Thank you, Iam64 and growstuff

If predictions are correct, surely the increase in cases should decrease shortly, if it was linked to Christmas and the New Year, or is that too simplistic?

I think it's too simplistic, eazybee. This mutant strain is spreading like wildfire and the government just isn't doing enough to isolate it. There are straws in the wind, like the Liverpool experiment with the lateral flow testing, cheap, fast results and identifies people who are highly infectious, but without financial support for people who cannot afford to stop work to isolate it won't stop them spreading the virus. The government is struggling and, I think, close to, (if not already, being overwhelmed.

Have you seen the infection rates in Liverpool now? They're amongst the highest in the country (three times those of Manchester), so that experiment didn't work very well.

Namsnanny

growstuff said in response to posters drawing comparisons to both China and NZ.
Pointing out that unless the information is correct the conclusion will be skewed.
If the conclusion is skewed, the way forward ( for the discussion or the pandemic) is going to fail.

let's concentrate on our own country

Yes I agree, but we dont live in a bubble do we?
It could be said if we had collaborated more with other Asian countries from the off, we would be in a better place now.

I'm not disagreeing with what could/should have been, but we are where we are now.

Agreed

growstuff

Namsnanny

Grannygravy...
China has denied WHO access

China lied to the WHO the first time around.
Therefore how can anything they say be trusted now?

Why does it matter? Let's concentrate on our own country.

Areed, growstuff.

Leave the recriminations to later, when, or if, we ever get through this.

Thank you, Iam64 and growstuff

If predictions are correct, surely the increase in cases should decrease shortly, if it was linked to Christmas and the New Year, or is that too simplistic?

I think it's too simplistic, eazybee. This mutant strain is spreading like wildfire and the government just isn't doing enough to isolate it. There are straws in the wind, like the Liverpool experiment with the lateral flow testing, cheap, fast results and identifies people who are highly infectious, but without financial support for people who cannot afford to stop work to isolate it won't stop them spreading the virus. The government is struggling and, I think, close to, (if not already, being overwhelmed.

growstuff said in response to posters drawing comparisons to both China and NZ.
Pointing out that unless the information is correct the conclusion will be skewed.
If the conclusion is skewed, the way forward ( for the discussion or the pandemic) is going to fail.

let's concentrate on our own country

Yes I agree, but we dont live in a bubble do we?
It could be said if we had collaborated more with other Asian countries from the off, we would be in a better place now.

Namsnanny

^We need to take control^

But what will that look like in practise?

A police commissioner is asking for the law to change to give them the power to enter peoples homes

Presumably to check for rule breakers.

Would we want this?
Isnt this a hammer to crack a walnut?

I don't remember many people complaining when the police broke up student house parties in a couple of well-publicised events. Why is it any different if the police break up large gatherings of family members or friends?

On the subject of rights, I was reading an article (sorry, can't find it now) about human rights. As we all know human rights sometimes contradict each other and decisions have to be made as to which right trumps another.

Yes, there is a right to freedom of expression (eg not to wear a mask and to leave home whenever you want) but there is also a right to life. A government has the responsibility to ensure that all citizens have a right not to have their lives taken away unnecessarily by others behaving recklessly. Which is more important - the right to freedom of expression or the right to life?