British

I think I'd have to live as a muslim woman, in a muslim country to have any "lived experience".
Not forgetting that after the fast, the women prepare all the food for the feasting afterwards.
Nope. I'd be an awful muslim woman.

Ramadan and how it is managed or experienced in a Muslim country is very different from for example a European country with different health and safety laws and unions. See this link re Denmark
muslimnews.co.uk/newspaper/denmarks-bus-operator-debunks-ministers-ramadan-safety-concern/

I'd never observe a religions rules.
I think the whole idea is a load of b**llocks.
(Source: me)

No AI did not say there was no evidence - it said the evidence was not sufficient. That’s not the same thing. Absence or insufficiency of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. What would be needed is proper research to test the hypothesis

Muslims believe Ramadan is a holy order from God in the Qur'an. It's a core religious duty-not man-made. The fourth pillar of Islam.

Wow SueDonim, that's a very interesting post. And not only does it prove how damaging all this is to society but it provides first hand evidence that driving buses whilst fasting is not a good idea.

SueDonim

I’ve lived in a Muslim country. Ramadan had a marked effect on life as it progressed. At first, not much changed apart from, for non-fasting people, very few eating places opened, or they opened but we ate behind curtains to be hidden from public view. If we were in a restaurant as evening fell, people would be at tables, with their food in front of them, waiting until the owner/manager had a signal from a local authority that the sun had set. The first course was usually a big bowl of colourful jelly studded with fruit salad and a sweet fruity drink, I guess to replenish energy levels.

As the fast progressed, people became unreliable, as they were getting tired and slower. My children would be late for school because our driver didn’t turn up on time or I’d be late to collect them, because he’d be away sleeping somewhere. I had to keep an eye on his driving, in case he fell asleep at the wheel, not to mention the fear of other drivers causing accidents by dropping off. Our female house staff also became weary and jobs were left undone as they didn’t have the energy, partly because they spent half the night awake preparing meals for their families. It was hard for them.

For professionals such as my Dh, it made getting his job done difficult because people just weren’t turning up for work or were doing their jobs so slowly. Sometimes he’d have to go and find where they had gone to wake them up from a nap. Trying to do general things became harder as the weeks passed. Businesses would close on a whim or shops decided not to open that day. You never quite knew what to expect.

Towards the end, the city became very quiet and still, as though a torpor had spread over everything. Then there’d be a huge rush to prepare for the end of Ramadan, akin to last minute Christmas shopping. People bought gifts of food for each other and to give to charity and also new clothes, especially for children. When the end of Ramadan was finally declared everyone became very cheerful, smiling, hand shaking and saying Selamat Idul Fitri, even to us non-Muslims. Then a couple of days off work before normal life resumed.

Thanks SueDonim for posting a life lived around the physical and mental states of fasting during Ramadan.
The famine and feast aspect cannot be good for people in any country.
My own take on fasting for ‘religious’ reasons is that it’s madness.For any religion.Why so many millions go along with crazy man made rules is a source of constant wonder to me.

Tuliptree

I said it without using AI

You said you would need evidence. AI said there is no evidence.😉

It's about being given the opportunity to understand others beliefs, traditions and celebrations, to help promote tolerance and inclusivity. We live in a multi-cultural society. It has always been an invitation and not mandatory. After all a significant number often complain that that don't like immigrants because they are not like us. So I think it is a positive idea. When I was teaching we had a number of gypsy/Roma children and I was always invited to their annual fayre. It really helped me understand their community, which I could build on to increase attendance levels. I'd fast for a day and for charity...might lose a bit of weight. There are also many safe exclusions in place that take into account health, menstruation and diabetes etc. What's not to like. Think of all the Jamaican's that arrived in the 50's and 60's and how badly they were treated. Bet a few of us like jerk chicken etc now. After the fast anyone who chooses to fast is likely to be invited to a sundown feast too. What's not to like and be hopeful about.

I’ve lived in a Muslim country. Ramadan had a marked effect on life as it progressed. At first, not much changed apart from, for non-fasting people, very few eating places opened, or they opened but we ate behind curtains to be hidden from public view. If we were in a restaurant as evening fell, people would be at tables, with their food in front of them, waiting until the owner/manager had a signal from a local authority that the sun had set. The first course was usually a big bowl of colourful jelly studded with fruit salad and a sweet fruity drink, I guess to replenish energy levels.

As the fast progressed, people became unreliable, as they were getting tired and slower. My children would be late for school because our driver didn’t turn up on time or I’d be late to collect them, because he’d be away sleeping somewhere. I had to keep an eye on his driving, in case he fell asleep at the wheel, not to mention the fear of other drivers causing accidents by dropping off. Our female house staff also became weary and jobs were left undone as they didn’t have the energy, partly because they spent half the night awake preparing meals for their families. It was hard for them.

For professionals such as my Dh, it made getting his job done difficult because people just weren’t turning up for work or were doing their jobs so slowly. Sometimes he’d have to go and find where they had gone to wake them up from a nap. Trying to do general things became harder as the weeks passed. Businesses would close on a whim or shops decided not to open that day. You never quite knew what to expect.

Towards the end, the city became very quiet and still, as though a torpor had spread over everything. Then there’d be a huge rush to prepare for the end of Ramadan, akin to last minute Christmas shopping. People bought gifts of food for each other and to give to charity and also new clothes, especially for children. When the end of Ramadan was finally declared everyone became very cheerful, smiling, hand shaking and saying Selamat Idul Fitri, even to us non-Muslims. Then a couple of days off work before normal life resumed.

I said it without using AI

Tuliptree

Witzend’s post is not about one of her student's driving a bus in an afternoon. They were young men who’d been up late she said and students so very context dependent. What I’d call evidence is the number of bus accidents in the UK during Ramadan caused by fasting Moslems. Then compared to the number of bus accidents overall in the same period by non fasting drivers. This would then have the appropriate statistical test applied to see if the results were statistically significant. That would be evidence not imaginings

😁Tuliptree You can always rely on AI to give an answer based on evidence and facts. AI says the following:
Based on the available evidence, it would not be accurate to claim that fasting bus drivers cause more accidents than non-fasting bus drivers during Ramadan. The evidence is insufficient to support that conclusion. A well-designed comparative study would be needed to determine whether any difference exists and whether fasting itself, rather than other factors associated with Ramadan, explains it.

However, as I said, I would never support the idea of anyone working with dangerous machinery whilst fasting. They should take the day off, which is what I would do myself.

Chestnut

Tuliptree

Oreo

I sincerely hope that most West Midlands officers feel confident enough to ignore this ‘invitation’.

Oh no, I’m sure they were all browbeaten, pressurised, bullied into fasting. There must have been a story in the DT/ DM every single year this happened .

There are so many ways of pressurising people in the workplace, psychological bullying and being made to feel guilty or different from your colleagues.

Yup, agree.
That's why the invitation to join in is often issued - exactly why.
Fasting isn't just a n Islamic observance, Christians throughout the ages did this too - priests before celebrating Mass etc - but it hasn't persisted in the english churches.

My daughters and I used to fast for one day a year to raise awareness of world hunger. Obviously, as I was teaching, I was not involved in any particularly physical work . I missed my cups of tea the most.
Some people chose to sponsor us.
I am a Christian.

We can respect other people's beliefs, or none, without having to try them for ourselves.

Yes, police officers may be working below par if their blood sugars drop through fasting.

Witzend’s post is not about one of her student's driving a bus in an afternoon. They were young men who’d been up late she said and students so very context dependent. What I’d call evidence is the number of bus accidents in the UK during Ramadan caused by fasting Moslems. Then compared to the number of bus accidents overall in the same period by non fasting drivers. This would then have the appropriate statistical test applied to see if the results were statistically significant. That would be evidence not imaginings

As far as I'm concerned, anyone can fast for religious or health reasons as long as they do it on a day off and not whilst operating any type of machinery which could potentially kill or injure people.

I don't think anyone should be pressured or even asked to fast in the workplace on behalf of any religion.

That's basically my view which I think is fair.

Nurseundercover

Clearly my initial post has been misunderstood. It’s certainly not that the police were invited to participate, but the fact that it was implied that as intelligent people, unless you experience something you are unable to fully understand the significance within a faith.
I have worked in palliative care for more than twenty years. During that time I have ensured and enabled patients of all faiths to continue with their beliefs and rituals as far is safe and practical in various medical settings.
So once again simply put, I do understand the significance of following faith rituals. I just don’t want to be involved involuntarily as in the case of halal meat.
I thought this site encouraged respectful discussion, unfortunately some appear unable to accept opinions that do not align with their own.

I think it was a great post and has encourage a robust debate! Most people have an opinion on the subject of religious fasting and are posting about it. It has all been respectful I think, no-one has attacked anyone or called them names. I do remember one poster a few years back swearing away on here! 🤦‍♀️

Witzend

I used to teach English in (Muslim) Oman, to mostly young men working for various government ministries. TBH lessons (2 hour slots) during Ramadan were always a bit of a nightmare - they would mostly be half asleep because they’d been up half the night eating and drinking.

OTOH the Indian Muslim chap who used to help with housework etc. didn’t apparently ease off at all during Ramadan. I once found him out in the incredibly hot sun washing my car, and said please leave it, it could wait.

But he insisted on carrying on as usual. ‘Habit, this.’

Tuliptree, here's the evidence that you've been hankering after. Witzend actually saw the effects of fasting on young men, causing them to fall asleep in the afternoon. Now imagine if one of them were driving a London bus in the afternoon. Okay, one guy cleaned a car, but everyone is different and most older men may not be in perfect health and the fasting may cause them to feel weak.

Clearly my initial post has been misunderstood. It’s certainly not that the police were invited to participate, but the fact that it was implied that as intelligent people, unless you experience something you are unable to fully understand the significance within a faith.
I have worked in palliative care for more than twenty years. During that time I have ensured and enabled patients of all faiths to continue with their beliefs and rituals as far is safe and practical in various medical settings.
So once again simply put, I do understand the significance of following faith rituals. I just don’t want to be involved involuntarily as in the case of halal meat.
I thought this site encouraged respectful discussion, unfortunately some appear unable to accept opinions that do not align with their own.

Observant Jews fast for 25 hours on Yom Kippur and Tisha B'Av and have a number of minor fasts (sunrise to sunset) as well, throughout the year. IMO having an understanding and respect for religions is important in a multicultural society regardless of whether someone is a member of a religion or not. I am not religious although I was brought up as a Methodist and have Jewish ancestry through my maternal grandmother but I am struck by the many similarities between world religions and fasting seems to be one.

Most religions recommend fasting as a practice . so I am wondering if those anti are against fasting in every religion.
There is plenty of information on Wikipedia.

Rosie51

Last post to Tuliptree

Don’t hold your breath on this .

westendgirl

I think the comment about Dr Michael Mosely was extremely unkind and as Tuliptree said , unfair.
Have you ever fasted, Oreo? If you did you would see what effect it had on you, which is probably not quite the same as it could have on me. I am very sure that those who do practise fasting have the experience to to do it safely.Why do you think people should n't drive ?

His death was sad but entirely of his own making.I always thought he had some extraordinary health ideas and wouldn’t have trusted his advice on anything.
No I don’t agree with the silly idea of fasting for ‘religious’ reasons so wouldn’t do it.
Read on Internet sources about more accidents late afternoon when drivers are rushing home to eat and their blood sugars are at their lowest.

I used to teach English in (Muslim) Oman, to mostly young men working for various government ministries. TBH lessons (2 hour slots) during Ramadan were always a bit of a nightmare - they would mostly be half asleep because they’d been up half the night eating and drinking.

OTOH the Indian Muslim chap who used to help with housework etc. didn’t apparently ease off at all during Ramadan. I once found him out in the incredibly hot sun washing my car, and said please leave it, it could wait.

But he insisted on carrying on as usual. ‘Habit, this.’