Being asked for an honest opinion

I used to be part of a writing group and we did give honest feedback because we wanted to write well. We gave the positives too. I did an 'edit your novel' course, which told us how to take out extraneous words. Every writer should want to improve their writing, but normally you would do that before you spend out the money! You can be honest but kind though. Presumably she wants people to enjoy her books. She can ignore it if she doesn't agree.

Your friend doesn't want your honest opinion if it's not unalloyed praise. You said it yourself- she wants you to leave rave reviews on Amazon and similar sites. Who can blame her - she is proud of this book and wants it to sell. As a script editor/writer I can't stress enough how badly your criticism will be received. She needs that from an objective professional, not her close friends. Friends have asked for my "brutally honest" opinion. I would never give feedback once published - what's the point -but at the early draft stage I stressed many times that it may not be what they want -were they sure? "Oh yes let me have it; I need the help". They didn't want that. Even when coated with kindness. No. They wanted to be told it was brilliant. A work of "staggering genius" with perhaps some tiny amendments needed. They don't know this when they ask - but it's their baby and it truly hurts for that to be badly regarded. I have been "coerced" into writing glowing reviews for Amazon in the past. I don't write any now. Don't trust any Amazon book reviews. They are written by friends, aunties, uncles, former teachers and even bots. It's too late for honest feedback anyway as it's done and the second is on its way. I wouldn't want to hurt her feelings - well done to her for having the guts to get it done.

Oh dear .......

Luckygirl, apparently the OP’s friend did pay for an editor and a proof reader, resulting in the book being pruned by a third.

Self-published books lack the presence of an editor, which is why it is important to seek editorial advice from everyone and anyone - especially those you feel will be honest - before spending money on it.

It sounds as though your friend has not done this and has laid out money and is then seeking feedback.

So, if you do not feel able to be totally honest with her because it is her baby, then at the very least you might find a way of suggesting that she gets lots of feedback/editing before she tries to self-publish a second book.

In our writing group, one person has just self published a novel. He asked us all to read and comment. I hated it and thought it utter drivel. HoweverI think he was not hurt by my critique as I honestly said that I never read sci fi fiction as I am unable to cope with the unreality but the two chapters I did read were well constructed and well written. He was happy and I had been honest.

Can you not say something similar- the subject matter/ story line did not appeal but it was generally well written but maybe needed a tad more pruning?

Compliment sandwich maybe? This was good, this could have been better, this was excellent?

Is the friend attending the meeting?
In my reading group (not the same I know) we go round the room and everyone makes three succinct comments, otherwise some talk at great length and leave little for others to say. Then we open up a general discussion, which might make it easier to produce kind comments: oh yes, I think that too.

The trouble with the sandwich approach is that anyone who has been involved in courses where it is applied (as in any and all Arts courses) can spot it at 100 paces. It is possible to do it reasonably well, but that skill is only acquired with years of experience, and even then, if something is really bad it's hard to hide the criticism filling between slices of lukewarm praise.

Someone I know who goes to poetry workshops, for instance, often goes on about the sandwich technique, and really believes she applies it, but might say 'I loved the topic of the poem, Gladys, but wondered about the way you expressed it, and thought the structure needed work. Overall, though, the poem was interesting.' Well, she probably wouldn't say anything quite as bad as that (I am making a point), but I hope you see what I mean?

IMO there are other factors - one is that feedback needs to come from someone who knows what they are talking about eg what sells, or what appeals to different markets, what is in vogue nowadays etc (in other words a publisher) and another is that the author is experienced enough at getting feedback to get benefit from it, and many are not.

OP, your friend has written a book, it’s been published, now she wants to write another book. She seems to enjoy the process for its own sake, and derives satisfaction from her achievement, so I don’t think I’d be too frank about the book’s weaknesses.

It’s reminding me of a friend who absolutely loves singing, but she has an atrocious voice. None of us are going to tell her that though.

keepcalmandcarryon -

I only wish people good luck and joy in making a living from the Arts .
It's notoriously difficult.

My daughter has succeeded ,
but I supplemented her for years.
I've found trying to encourage the acting relative difficult ,but of course -I do !
One gifted actor that I know is waiting tables in his forties .
I certainly feel sorry for him .
Two of my friends have daughters who are aspiring singers . It's been a struggle for their mothers trying to support them .

‘She has said she wants an honest opinion, good or bad.’
To some extent you have to take her at her word and do that but it sounds like it’s going to be a verbal feedback session with her hearing it for the first time, so could be tricky, and difficult for her. Yes definitely prepare something to say in advance - one thing to praise and one thing that’s critical but helpful, too long etc. Perhaps your other friends will raise different things.

There are so many ways to publish these days. I didn’t know , for instance, that when you have a traditional contract with a publisher, and an advance, you do not get any royalties until the advance is paid off in book sales. Which is why publishers often plump for ‘celebs’ or other well known people.
If you publish yourself you get royalties straight away. Checks and balances again.

It's a really tricky task. You don't want to hurt your friend, and you don't want her to keep fooling herself.
The sandwich approach has a lot of merit.
Best of luck.

The trouble with self-publishing is that there are no checks or balances as there are when a publisher has selected the work for their lists. It used to be called ‘vanity publishing’ for good reason.

I know a few people who self-publish and it’s clear why no publisher would have taken them on. They do it so that they can refer to themselves as ‘a published author’, which rather devalues the term. Not everything comes under that definition though. Some people like to write memoirs or family history, as a way of keeping memories alive for future generations - that sort of thing. They aren’t pretending to be ‘published authors’, but want their thoughts set down so that they remain relevant after the author has gone.

In the OP’s circumstances I think the important thing is to know what her friend wants from the book. Is her opinion being asked because she hopes to sell enough copies to get a second edition? Is she planning a sequel? Is she hoping a publisher will pick up her work and run with it. Feedback could concentrate on what she hopes to achieve.

I would be a lot kinder in actual feedback than I am being in this post, though. I agree that writing is very important to the author, and any snobbery about vanity publishing can be countered by the fact that JK Rowling was once self-published 😀.

Esmay

Oh dear !
As this lady is spending money having books published -maybe it's best to be honest .
Hopefully she'll improve her writing .
Can she afford to lose money ?

I was asked to proof read a Japanese friend's writing and ended up re-writing the entire book . There wasn't one sentence without grammatical/spelling mistakes. It took me over a week of burning the midnight oiĺ . I had a headache at the end of it as I handed her work back .
Fortunately, she's wealthy it was just a matter of achievement with her.

I'm often asked to look at people's artwork and I find it hugely embarrassing.
When presented with something , which isn't that great -I try to indicate the good points. The colour palette is wonderful,I'll enthuse.
I've seen people set their hearts on acting ,dancing and /or singing and failing .
It's sad when they pay a great deal money for lessons.
I once sat through a play in which a relative had a bit part and she was truly appalling.
Her career has failed.

I think that the person has to realise that they aren't quite as talented as they thought they were.

Yes Esmay, taking down a peg or two, that's what friends do to each other

That'll learn 'em, going off enjoying themselves and trying to join in things!

Quercus

No writer ever wants a totally honest opinion, not ever, even if they say they do.
Do the 'sandwich' feedback: make positive comments about anything that even vaguely merits it, then one minor criticism, and finish on another positive note.

The forum that Quercus described as a three part method is the proper way to critique and encourage. You are but one reviewer. Be honest so that she reaches new levels with each attempt. It is not that she is good or bad. It is that you are honest and she strives to improve.

Oh dear !
As this lady is spending money having books published -maybe it's best to be honest .
Hopefully she'll improve her writing .
Can she afford to lose money ?

I was asked to proof read a Japanese friend's writing and ended up re-writing the entire book . There wasn't one sentence without grammatical/spelling mistakes. It took me over a week of burning the midnight oiĺ . I had a headache at the end of it as I handed her work back .
Fortunately, she's wealthy it was just a matter of achievement with her.

I'm often asked to look at people's artwork and I find it hugely embarrassing.
When presented with something , which isn't that great -I try to indicate the good points. The colour palette is wonderful,I'll enthuse.
I've seen people set their hearts on acting ,dancing and /or singing and failing .
It's sad when they pay a great deal money for lessons.
I once sat through a play in which a relative had a bit part and she was truly appalling.
Her career has failed.

I think that the person has to realise that they aren't quite as talented as they thought they were.

Good luck to your friend. Being a writer myself , I know that a book is like a baby. You want to love and protect it. Most people recognise that and are generous in their praise.The only person who has never said one word to me about my books, has been my sister.
I hope your friend ‘s next book will be even better. It’s a steep learning curve.

Thank you all for your great suggestions. Peripheral information is a great word to use, as is the phrase
‘getting in the way of the narrative’. My friend has paid an editor and proof reader. The book was apparently a third longer and was cut down. She has invested so much money and her soul in this book we all feel that we can’t say anything negative as it may upset her so much.
SpinDriftCoastal a very good idea.

Rosie51

I think a gentle amount of honesty is required. Perhaps if the basic premise of the book is good you could say so, but then go on to say you think it would have worked better if it was shorter, there was too much peripheral information to absorb type of thing. Just try to find something positive to start with, maybe her description of the locations, or the dialogue seemed very real, just something you can genuinely praise before enlarging on where you felt it could be better. I do think you need to be honest, but try to avoid being brutal.

This. it has to be "I loved the, but....maybe if this passage ....(were shortened, got in the way for the flow of the book, might have been used to another purpose)

You are not helping her at all by not alluding to bits where if her attention is brought to them, might be cut or more usefully and used for another purpose.

If people don't help out (and she isn't going to professional for this) then her next book might have the same errors in shape and style.

I've shown work as a visual artist and it's so hard to send your baby out there into the world and get horrible stuff back, but...

I really gained by people saying, "if only you'd made this or that more clear...

The other things she will gain is different feedback from different people. Different people might choose this or that as the good bits, but

if all say "this bit too long and got in the way of the flow of the narrative" then she is as it were on the way to really helpful feedback.

You say she has already published…..so not much she can do about anything now. Did she not ask for opinions before she published.. no proofreader ?
Don’t put a review on a book site that is not honest.
I would suggest , that with her second book, she gives it to someone she really trusts. Someone who will give her a clear idea of what and how to edit her manuscript.
Or suggest she uses one of the self publishing companies that will help her with that.

Highlight the good bits then suggest she hires a professional editor to tidy up a bit?

nanna8

Point out the good things first ( assuming there are some !) and then say you found it a little bit long ?

Yes! Great advice.

Reading all the above comments, they are all really relevant and give a good 360 degree view of the situation to 'inspire' you. Good luck and also hope your friend finds her niche.