Flight of fancy - protest against doctors’ strike

HGV drivers have similar levels of responsibility in their work, in that if they fall asleep at the wheel or fail to notice a hazard there are serious consequences to the public. If junior doctors (also known as resident doctors) do so, it is their patients who are in danger.

Below is a copy of the HGV working time rules and pay grades. I will post the equivalent Junior doctor working time rules and pay grades when I separately. Note that we are comparing the situation for beginners here, not experienced drivers, or consultant doctors with trainng and experience in specialities like surgery.

Type of HGV Licence Experience Level Average Salary
_Class 1 (C+E)_______Beginner______£30,000–£35,000
_Class 2 (C)________Beginner_______£25,000–£30,000

(A Class 1 C+E lorry is an articulated vehicle that bends in the middle and can weigh up to 44 tonne. A Class 2 lorry is any rigid vehicle over 7.5 and up to 32 tonne. You must have completed your LGV Class 2 licence before you are allowed to drive a Class 1 vehicle.)

Weekly working time must not exceed an average of 48 hours per week over the reference period, which can only be 17 or 26 weeks - a maximum working time of 60 hours can be performed in any single week providing the average 48-hour limit is not exceeded
Night work: If night work is performed, working time must not exceed 10 hours in any 24-hour period Night time is the period between 00.00 and 04.00 for goods vehicles and between 01.00 and 05.00 for passenger vehicles. The 10-hour limit may be exceeded if this is permitted under a collective or workforce agreement
Breaks:
Mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break
If working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes
If working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes
Breaks should be at least 15 minutes’ duration

If you break the drivers’ hours rules, you may be prosecuted or fined.

I think my daughter would be very happy to have those rules, sadly they don't apply to doctors! The HGV driver can qualify in less than 10 weeks, tbh I don't think the comparison stands up the slightest scrutiny.

I am aiming for a contrast rather than saying they are the same - but I when I get the equivalent pay and rules for docors summarised - and the reality as well as the theoretical rules - we will see better.

There are the years of studying without earning, also the amount that the just-starting-out doctor has had to borrow to pay the fees and now has as to pay back - the HGV driver doesn't start off in debt.

Elegran

There are the years of studying without earning, also the amount that the just-starting-out doctor has had to borrow to pay the fees and now has as to pay back - the HGV driver doesn't start off in debt.

But lots of people have to pay back university fees. The HGV driver may herself been at a university and have to pay back fees.

What junior doctors should get is smaller workloads, shorter working hours, and more suitably qualified ancillary staff.

The overall need is for what funds there are to be spent on education and training . Education and training don't result in overall wages escalation so is a better use of public money.

Caleo

What junior doctors should get is smaller workloads, shorter working hours, and more suitably qualified ancillary staff.

The overall need is for what funds there are to be spent on education and training . Education and training don't result in overall wages escalation so is a better use of public money.

Agreed, especially about the suitably qualified as has been discussed elsewhere, you need to know what you’re getting when you have succeeded in getting an appointment.

Sorry this has been so long. Most of the time was spent trying to get the salary to display in a readable format, plus I had something else to do. as well

Grade____________________ Eng. - Scot. - Wales - N I
Foundation doctor year 1 - FY1 - £36,616 - £34,500 - £33,307 - £33,609
Foundation doctor year 2 - FY2 - £42,008 - £42,794 - £41,073 - £41,115
Specialty registrar core- - - CT1 - £49,909 - £45,504 - £43,821 - £43,773
- - training years 1 - 3 - - - - CT2 - ?????? - £48,288 - £46,438 - £46,307
___________________ CT3 - £61,825 - £52,177 - £50,099 - £49,841

According to Google AI overview, the total cost of tuition and maintenance for a UK medical student can range from £124,895 to £312,645 over five years. You could buy a reasonable house for that in most areas.

Working time rules -
These doctors are newly graduated and in their first few years of work doing their two hospital Foundation years, and are still in training. It is common for them to be the only doctor present on the ward for a whole shift.
You’re not supposed to work more than 48 hours average per week
You’re not supposed to work more than 72 hours in any 7 consecutive days/168 hours
You’re not supposed to have more than 4 long shifts in a row (by default)
You’re not supposed to work more than 4 night shifts in a row
You’re not supposed to have more than 7 shifts of any kind in a row (by default)
You’re not supposed to work more than 1 in 2 weekends
You’re entitled to a 46-hour gap after any night shift
You’re entitled to a 48-hour gap after any run of 5 long shifts in a row or 8 shifts of any kind in a row
You’re entitled to an 11-hour gap between shifts of any kind (so you can sleep).
You should have a 30 minute break for 5 hours work, and a second after 9 hours work. A third 30 minute break for a night shift rostered to last 12 hours or more.

www.bmj.com/careers/article/the-complete-guide-to-nhs-pay-for-doctors
hovtraining.com/how-much-do-hgv-drivers-earn/
www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/eu-rules
www.gov.uk/drivers-hours

mindthebleep.com/breaks-and-burnout/ Frank advice to newbies.

Yes, there are so many stories of young doctors being overloaded with more than can be accomplished in the time available and being rushed off their feet with no chance of food or breaks, even of toilet breaks, it is obvious that what is needed is more recruitment and shorter shifts, plus the quick and easy availability of healthy and nutritious food and drink when the chance of a break occurs.

Money isn't everything.

If resident doctors have an argument with those employing them over their terms and conditions then they should argue that through with their employers. Not put the lives and health of those who have nothing to do with the dispute at risk as a means of leverage.

Isn't that what terrorists do?

Mollygo

Caleo

What junior doctors should get is smaller workloads, shorter working hours, and more suitably qualified ancillary staff.

The overall need is for what funds there are to be spent on education and training . Education and training don't result in overall wages escalation so is a better use of public money.

Agreed, especially about the suitably qualified as has been discussed elsewhere, you need to know what you’re getting when you have succeeded in getting an appointment.

Absolutely. Practitioner nurses must be adequately trained, and have their roles clearly demarcated.

M0nica

If resident doctors have an argument with those employing them over their terms and conditions then they should argue that through with their employers. Not put the lives and health of those who have nothing to do with the dispute at risk as a means of leverage.

Isn't that what terrorists do?

No it's what ordinary trade unionists do. It oversteps the mark into something more like terrorism when striking puts lives at risk.

ronib

I think I might write to the two leaders of the BMA this time around. My niece was a junior doctor and I remember her frustration at having to manage on a starting salary. However she is extremely wealthy now having resigned as a gp and married up . Leaving the country now.
foxie48

But these doctors now are making comparatively less than your niece did.

It’s not the same.

Summerlove my niece was a highly dedicated and brilliant student doctor who wouldn’t ever have gone on strike. That’s the real difference between now and then. There are many valuable and needed professionals who understand that the first two years in work will be at a starting salary. Most doctors I know are very well remunerated. My niece would never have jeopardised the well being of her patients by striking.

Interesting to see that my niece was the equivalent of £35k in her first year of working back in 2006. Why is the BMA not asking for 2006 parity?

Was on

I’m sure your niece is a living saint ronib, and today’s young doctors will never emulate her general all round wonderfulness. Come on now.

Casdon well she was the top medical student at two universities!! Her salary seems to equate to £35k a year for f1. So why isn’t the BMA asking for this salary level?

With 47 medical schools in the UK, all of which have a top student every year, including now?
Anyway, comparison between 2005 and 2015 attached.
www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/politics/doctors-salaries-drop-by-22-in-a-decade-official-research-finds/

Interesting- there’s a deafening silence about the amount that private practice pays out to consultants Casdon.

Perhaps because only about half of consultants do any private work, the rest work only for the NHS.

Or because it’s nothing to do with the pay of NHS junior doctors?

Maybe it’s about relative deprivation? Casdon

Medicine does offer a good starting salary for new graduates as compared to other professions. When some consultants are earning mega bucks, I suppose the long haul to get there might frustrate the younger ones.

Then shouldn’t the BMA take up working T’s and C’s with the GMC, or am I barking up the totally wrong tree?
I am about to go to bed!

The starting salary for new doctors is not good compared with other new graduates . Taking into consideration that they start work 2 to 4 years later ( depending on the route) with considerably more debt an F1 salary is below the starting salary of many professional graduate training schemes. Eg Lidl graduate training scheme offers a salary of up to£40k + a car , discounts on purchases, gym membership and other perks