What is a lesbian?

I actually meant what I actually said.

I am in no way denying that the Nazis repressed minorities and have never said anything of the sort.

I am not 'unable to consider' anything at all.

Please stop twisting what I say and telling me what I think.

PS I have seen The Danish Girl, too .

Iam64 it could all become clear when Glorianny answers the question I raised earlier.

Callistemon21

Fleurpepper

There has been no bullying from VS- she has tried to explain that trans people can change sex, not genetically, but in every other way. And that they are no risk or danger to other women. And also that some lesbians can be attracted to those trans women- and remain lesbians.

If there is one person who is being bullied here, it is not the one who left. My last post on this subject.

she has tried to explain that trans people can change sex, not genetically, but in every other way

How is that possible?

It's not.

Because it is- as far as many of us are concerned, including lesbians. You and many disagree- it does not make it any less true.

Iam64

Gloryannie, Berlin in the 1930’s was hardly a safe space for anyone. I’m puzzled at the frequency with which you introduce the Nazi’s into debates.
I’m with Doodledog and others in seeing this debate as more about misogyny versus feminism. If we are reflecting on belief systems, the extreme left is like the extreme right imo, oppressive and inflexible

That can't be true Iam64 many feminists will ally themselves with transpeople. I realise that on these threads the accusation of misogyny is then hurled at them. But in fact the feminists who do accept transpeople are the very opposite of misogynistic. They regard the establishment of hierarchies, where one minority group is pitted against another as the product of patriarchy and used by established male networks to keep them in power. The sad thing is that some women seem to have latched onto these ideas and imagine they are some form of feminism when in fact they are simply patriarchal. It's divide and rule of course.
Anyone who thinks that those men now pretending to care about women's spaces are actually supportive of women is being naive. Some of the most outspoken about transwomen treat real women terribly and will continue to do so.

They may think so, Fleurpepper but it simply isn't true.

Gender, yes, and well done to anyone who goes through the complete process of complete gender reassignment, but sex is determined by your DNA.

I don't know why being lesbian is relevant at all.

Gloryanny, wanting women to retain rights isn’t the same as being anti trans.
Which bit of my post ‘can’t be true’

Who are you to tell them it is not true. It is not genetically true- but it is in every other way. And it does mean they can live, work, have sex, with men or with lesbians if all agree- and even marry.

Come and discuss this with my niece- married to a man. You could meet here anywhere and have NO idea she was born a man. And she works in a care home- looking after women and men.

But that's what we are saying Fleurpepper that it isn't genetically true. No one's saying that they can't live, work, have sex with men or lesbians and marry.

The key point in relation to this thread is 'if all agree'. There's no way of knowing if all lesbians attending a speed dating event for lesbians would agree with trans women being present, which is why they shouldn't attend unless invited to do so.

Who are you to tell them it is not true. It is not genetically true- but it is in every other way

It is not genetically true
Well, you have stated exactly the same as me.

I might add, you don't know who I am so saying Who are you to tell them is a strange statement.

A brief explanation:

www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-male-and-vs-female-dna/

FP, if your niece looked like a transwoman instead of a woman would that make your case in support of her the weaker?

The way people look, and whether 'anyone would know' is really not the issue. A lot of transwomen look fairly obviously male, whereas someone like Courtney Act looks very feminine and glamorous, but that doesn't make him a woman (as he acknowledges - sometimes he is Courtney and at others he is Shane). The ability to 'pass' doesn't make someone more of a woman than someone who will always look like a man. I don't know why you think what someone looks like makes a difference.

Your niece may indeed 'pass' as a woman, but the fact remains that there could be women she cares for who would be very unhappy to know that they were being cared for by a male. I'm sure that many others won't mind at all, but there are religions which would absolutely forbid it, and regardless of religion people's choices have to be respected. If women can't stipulate whom they allow to touch them intimately, where does it end? Are we to simply submit to male wants in all circumstances?

It is that sort of thinking (that if women don't know they are being touched by a man then it doesn't matter) that is so misogynistic. It totally foregrounds male wants and renders female needs irrelevant. Can't you see that? I am not for a moment suggesting that your niece is anything other than a marvellous carer, but that is not the point. IMO transpeople (male or female) should avoid careers where they need to touch others intimately. This leaves them plenty of choices and respects the fact that people in care have agency.

Not strange at all. Her papers say she is female, she looks very beautiful and is very feminine. She is 'Mrs' married to a 'Mr'. And you would never, ever know. I think even if she dated a lesbian, she would never know. What her DNA says is no longer relevant in every practical daily way.

Yes, I can see that. And said it before- most men in care homes or hospital have no choice. As her papers indicate she is female, and is married to a man- there would be no way of knowing or discriminating.

The sad thing is that some women seem to have latched onto these ideas and imagine they are some form of feminism when in fact they are simply patriarchal.

Can you give examples where 'some women' have 'imagined' this, please? It is very difficult for posters to know whether they agree with you or not when you post in such vague terms. I'd like to know on what evidence you are basing your 'knowledge' of what 'some women' imagine, too.

In the current NHS, with such huge waiting list and difficulties in getting appointments- most women do not have the choice to only see a female gyneacologist or obstetrician either.

Fleurpepper

Yes, I can see that. And said it before- most men in care homes or hospital have no choice. As her papers indicate she is female, and is married to a man- there would be no way of knowing or discriminating.

OK, so would you feed meat to a vegetarian or vegan if it could be disguised so they had no way of knowing?

And why does the fact that the same thing happens to men make it acceptable? Do two wrongs make a right for you?

Fleurpepper

Who are you to tell them it is not true. It is not genetically true- but it is in every other way. And it does mean they can live, work, have sex, with men or with lesbians if all agree- and even marry.

Come and discuss this with my niece- married to a man. You could meet here anywhere and have NO idea she was born a man. And she works in a care home- looking after women and men.

Come and discuss this with my niece- married to a man. You could meet here anywhere and have NO idea she was born a man. And she works in a care home- looking after women and men.

Yes, of course. Please send air fares and arrange pre-paid accommodation.

Fleurpepper

In the current NHS, with such huge waiting list and difficulties in getting appointments- most women do not have the choice to only see a female gyneacologist or obstetrician either.

Yes they do. They may have to wait longer, so that choice might be constrained by clinical need, but that's not really the point, which is that if a woman is seen by a male doctor she is aware of it, and can ask for a chaperone if she prefers.

Fleurpepper

In the current NHS, with such huge waiting list and difficulties in getting appointments- most women do not have the choice to only see a female gyneacologist or obstetrician either.

I don't think I ever saw a female gynaecologist or obstetrician.

Would your niece give intimate care to a woman who has specified quite clearly that she only wants that care to be given to her by a woman Fleurpepper? If she did, because the woman wouldn't be able to tell that she's trans, do you think that's acceptable?

Doodledog

Fleurpepper

Yes, I can see that. And said it before- most men in care homes or hospital have no choice. As her papers indicate she is female, and is married to a man- there would be no way of knowing or discriminating.

OK, so would you feed meat to a vegetarian or vegan if it could be disguised so they had no way of knowing?

And why does the fact that the same thing happens to men make it acceptable? Do two wrongs make a right for you?

No, not at all. and if I may say so, a truly nonsensical comparison.

A Lesbian is someone who is sexually attracted to females. Some may, or may not, be attracted to trans females. Probably more like if the trans female is totally convincing as a female. But not necessarily.

A Lesbian is someone who is sexually attracted to females

We seem to have come full circle on the thread.

Not really for many here. Those who totally deny that lesbians can be attracted to trans women, and have relationships with them, sexually too.

Have people not stopped telling lesbians they can't be lesbians if they believe trans women are women yet?

Fleurpepper

Not really for many here. Those who totally deny that lesbians can be attracted to trans women, and have relationships with them, sexually too.

No-one has said that.

Smileless2012

Would your niece give intimate care to a woman who has specified quite clearly that she only wants that care to be given to her by a woman Fleurpepper? If she did, because the woman wouldn't be able to tell that she's trans, do you think that's acceptable?

I don't know. I have not discussed this with her. but since her papers say she is female, legally, and a MRS married to a man and you could not ever see the difference- why would that be an issue. She is employed as a female, legally, 100%.

I remember the days when some people would indicate very strongly that they did not want to be cared for by a black nurse or doctor, or carer. And of course, it was very obvious if they did. I have a cousin who worked in a private hospital during Apartheid, as a 'coloured' (yes, offcial label at that time) UK trained nurse. She worked in theater, only after patient was aneasthetised. They had to make sure she was always out of the way by the time the patient came round.