Using your intelligence in a bus queue situation

Wheelchair users do have general priority over other passengers but it is not a right. The accessibility guidelines on FirstBus say:

If the wheelchair space is occupied with a buggy, standing passengers or otherwise full, and there is space elsewhere in the vehicle, the driver will ask that it is made free for a wheelchair user. Where a pushchair or buggy is occupying the space, the driver will ask that it is repositioned, moved to another part of the bus or folded and stored in the luggage space, where available.

If passengers do not respond to such a request, without good reason, and the bus is not full, the driver will advise passengers that they are required to move from the wheelchair space. The driver will consider other action such as not setting off from the stop until the situation is resolved.

Please note that the driver has no power to compel passengers to move in this way and is reliant upon the goodwill of the passengers concerned. Unfortunately, if a fellow passenger refuses to move, the wheelchair user will need to wait for the next bus. If the bus is full or there is already a wheelchair user on board unfortunately we will not be able to carry another wheelchair user.

Actually I'm nostalgic for the days when busses had conductors as well as drivers who would usually help mothers with pushchairs or give an arm to an elderly person on and off the bus (apart from the odd surly grump, obviously).

And now we're looking at transport - trains - not only without guards, but drivers, too. Arriving at unmanned stations. I know it's obviously cheaper to automate and do away with human resources, but I can't help wondering if it's wise. Quite frankly, the rough and uncouth behaviour on busses and trains sometimes leads to disturbances and fights and is quite intimidating to other passengers.

IMO a bus driver's focus should be entirely on driving and he should not have to be responsible for the behaviour of his passengers, or jumping up and down to assist people. It must be quite a stressful job. A woman shouting obscenities at another woman and the possibility of a fight breaking out, which he has to deal with, should not be part of his remit.

As for the 'queue-jumping' woman with a buggy. She took a chance - as presumably the others could have done also. There is no rule to prevent anyone from going to any bus stop they choose. The only unwritten rule is that you don't push in front of someone standing in the same queue. If you choose to join another queue (which might also have contained people with buggies) you are no longer part of that queue.
The bigger question for me is why we cannot have a proper joined-up transport service, run at cost and based on the needs of the users rather than the profits of the private companies. Heavily used routes used to pay for the les-used routs so everyone had access to public transport. Which meant that people didn't have to choose to live tightly packed in areas with a good transport system. Far from perfect, I know, but it did create better job opportunities for people who lived in outlying areas who could actually afford to travel to work on public transport, into the towns and cities. Now we have crowded busses on many routes, none at all in some areas, and roads jam-packed with cars.

I don't know the legal situation, but I think that morally a wheelchair user should have priority if there is any space for able bodied people to sit or stand, but not to an automatic right to a space on a crowded bus when they have got on after the bus filled up.

(I pay single fairs - no passes here until SPA)

They just don't know how lucky they are. I remember the long walks - when prams weren't allowed on buses - with four small kids (two walking and two in the pram).

Later, folding a small, striped, Maclaren double buggy while trying to keep hold of shopping and kids - oh, and buying a ticket, all at the same time. Your shopping and buggy went in the storage spaces. Once, my bag of shopping disappeared!

Doodledog, if foot passengers were standing in the wheelchair space, and could not squash themselves in anywhere else, then they have to get off.
they have no right to occupy the wheelchair space to the exclusion of a wheelchair user.
v few people pay single trip fares nowadays, the have season tickets or passes.

It's not queue jumping, it's using the brains she was given. As others have said she's made the effort, taken a gamble and it paid off.

Wheelchairs have priority over pushchairs here too. I love the ease of just pushing the pushchair on to the bus now there are raised pavements at bus stops and lower steps to get on to the bus. Great progress.
Elegran's idea of opening up more space, as there is on the airport buses, would be a good way forward.

I think canny is a good word for what the Mum did, but I wonder how she will feel about it on reflection. It does feel as though she pushed in to me, albeit in a clever way.

JenniferEccles

I rarely look over there, but have noticed that posters are always ready to call out posts which they find suspicious and yes, more seems to be allowed on MN than GN.
It is far more robust.

Barmeyoldbat

So how would the mums reacted if a person in a wheelchair turned up, in our area they get priority over pushchairs

I was once on a bus when a wheelchair user wanted to get on and expected the five people standing in the space to get off to make room (the bus was full). All five had got on before the wheelchair user, and had paid their fares.

I was sitting elsewhere on the bus, so wasn't involved, but what do people make of that dilemma?

Years ago I used to commute along the Central Line from Notting Hill Gate to Bank every morning. The platform at NHG was often rammed, sometimes frighteningly so, with train after train arriving also rammed but always with some people getting off to change to the Circle Line. It so happens that the "right" carriage for getting off at NHG and Bank eastbound Central Line is the same – second from the front. I took to going one stop the other way to the much quieter Holland Park, crossing the platform and getting on the first train that came along in the second carriage. It was always rammed of course but at the next stop quite a few people got off and a seat would invariably become available.

I don't think the poster was rude, just a quick thinker. I have seen somebody with a buggy refuse to make way for a wheelchair — now that, in my humble opinion, was rude.

The first thing which struck me when I read this was the confirmation of just why, quite a few years ago, I stopped looking at Mumsnet because of the widespread use of obscene language there.
Gransnet was a welcome change.

Anyway back to the question….
I certainly wouldn’t interpret the woman’s actions as queue jumping, just using a bit of savvy to find a way round the problem.

Why are so many young women so aggressive these days?

So how would the mums reacted if a person in a wheelchair turned up, in our area they get priority over pushchairs

Atticus Love it!
I wish I'd been more adventurous naming my DC.

Atticus, Andromeda, Demetra, perhaps?

YorkLady

Am I the only one who is amazed that the Police turned up for this incident? What was the crime committed? 😡

An interesting philosophical question

Sometimes an OP on MN is treated with a degree of scepticism. 🤔

I remember waiting in a hospital many years ago when a toddler began walking away - the "mother" ( I use that term very loosely) shouted " F**ing Keanu, get your arse back here".



Why is it that some women who are lacking in the niceties of civilised society (I'm being diplomatic here) sometimes choose the most exotic names for their offspring?

Back in the 70s I was at a swimming pool in Twickenham (now gone) in the days when we used to take ourselves off to the local lidos when one of these mothers was trying to herd her children into their costumes - one lad was running around in his underpants. She yelled at the top of her voice, "Atticus let me put your bleedin' trunks on and stop farting around".

I agree with everything you have said NorthFace. The bus only has so many spaces so you can't get on if it is full. Yes, pushchair users have to give way to wheelchair users, but you mentioned two wheelchair users,

'You do whatever it takes to get on the bus' doesn't mean pushing past someone in the queue, but it certainly can mean going to an earlier stop. I don't think you can say what people should or shouldn't do, as long as they are not breaking any rules. Anyone at an earlier stop gets on first, that's how it works

the “canny” mother knew she would be displacing someone who had arrived in the queue before her

Possibly, but not necessarily. There could have been one or even two buggies on the bus, or a wheelchair, already. Nobody knew that in advance. Even her 'dodge' could have backfired if the bus had already been loaded.

Bring back "umbrella" pushchairs I say or even, heaven forbid, mothers who walk. [tinhat emoji] 🪖

There is a wider issue here. People with buggies can already face not getting a place on the bus. When they pick up a child from school while pushing a younger toddler in a buggy, it is very likely that there are more than two mothers and their children trying to get on. Buggies are bulkier than the smaller ones that we had with our children, and are not as easy to fold and stow away (there probably isn't that useful area under the stairs where we used to stash them, either) so once the two buggie spaces are full, there is no room for a third - even if the rest of the bus has plenty of empty seats. Maybe the bus companies could consider having more foldable bus seats, which could take either buggies or people?

The ‘canny’ mother didn’t know for certain that, by walking to the other bus stop, there wouldn’t be other parents with pushchairs. She was prepared to gamble.

The aspect of this scenario which I feel a twinge of disapproval about is the fact that the “canny” mother knew she would be displacing someone who had arrived in the queue before her, as she took the action she did knowing that a third buggy would not be alllowed on the bus.

I can understand the angry response, although the hostile language used was regrettable - but the Mumsnet OP was, in fact, a queue-jumper.

I think we were "loaded up" too.
What are they loaded up with these days that we didn't have do you think?
After all we had cloth nappies and inevitable changes of clothes, bags of groceries etc...

Chestnut. You are wrong. I travelled on a bus yesterday. I live in a busy city and commuted to, from and in London for most of my fifty years of working life. Now that I am retired, I still travel to London regularly and use my bus pass on travels all over the country.

I don't recognise the bus free for all that you seem to be describing "you do whatever it take to get on the bus". If I am third in the queue I will be the third person to get on the bus. If there are only two spaces, I won't be able to get on.

Wheelchair users have priority. This is what the bus company's accessibility charter says:

Of course, wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for the use of the designated wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can travel safely. Non-wheelchair users, unlike wheelchair users, will normally have a choice about which part of the bus to sit or stand in.

Common decency and respect for wheelchair users should mean that other passengers make way for them. Passengers are urged to offer cooperation in allowing proper use of the designated wheelchair area.

If the wheelchair space is occupied with a buggy, standing passengers or otherwise full, and there is space elsewhere in the vehicle, the driver will ask that it is made free for a wheelchair user. Where a pushchair or buggy is occupying the space, the driver will ask that it is repositioned, moved to another part of the bus or folded and stored in the luggage space, where available.

If passengers do not respond to such a request, without good reason, and the bus is not full, the driver will advise passengers that they are required to move from the wheelchair space. The driver will consider other action such as not setting off from the stop until the situation is resolved.

The same courtesy should apply to carers with buggies and I would hope that they show courtesy to one another. I don't think this woman did but I can see that I am in a minority so shall leave it at that.

When I used busses with my children I always folded my pushchair up. I'm sure there was room for several when folded. I don't ever remember being turned away because of my pushchair.

I was in London about a year ago and was amazed at the monstrous contraptions that people were pushing unfolded into the limited "standing" space. It seemed totally unreasonable to take up all that floor space to me.

As I said, people are so loaded up these days they can't manage to fold their pushchair down. They expect to get on and stay unfolded.

How many pushchairs are allowed on if they are properly folded up?
Maybe they wanted to push them on unfolded?
Does anyone know?