'Trans' a book about transactivism

Rosie51 Try Googling JaneElsdon Brailsford for a slightly different point of view.

This is a link to an organisation of lesbians who maintain that 'lesbian' means female people who are same sex attracted.

www.gettheloutuk.com/

Why would they bother if it's all hunky dory?

If the word 'lesbian' doesn't mean female people who are same sex attracted-

Why does it not mean that?
What term should be used for those female people?
Should there be no term for female people who are same sex attracted because that is transphobic and those people should change their view?

Yes, there is similar pressure from transmen towards gay men. I expect gay men are more capable of resisting it than lesbians are because, you know, males/females - different socialisation, different physical strength.

FarNorth

*trisher*, by 'women' and 'men' do you mean people who present themselves in a particular way, who meet certain stereotypes, or what exactly?
Obviously you don't mean people who have a certain biology.

Quoting FarNorth's post as you may have missed it. I'd be interested in your answer too trisher

Try Henry Brailsford-founder member of the Men's League for Women's Suffrage, wrote for Votes for Women, supported his wife Jane Brailsford who was a suffragette.

From Wiki Personal life[edit]
He married a former student, the women's activist Jane Esdon Malloch in 1898 at his insistence. She denied him children and regarded the marriage as demeaning. They separated but she refused him a divorce.[10]^

Hmm how very feminist of him to insist on marriage against her wishes. And he was one of 42 founders, it wasn't a one man operation.

JaneJudge-so yet another attempt to erode natal women’s rights - and enforce the rights of natal men.
Is there the same sort of hoo-ha about it being transphobic for gay men to turn down relationships with transmen? I’d look it up but it’s really tedious.
Being gay or lesbian is a life choice where individuals choose to have relationships with others of the same sex. If they choose to avoid relationships with people who don’t fit their view of that criterion, that’s not transphobic, it’s their right. Should we deny them that right?

Mollygo

trisher

More recently
Tony Benn and Margaret Thatcher
Jeremy Corbyn and Pritti Patel (anyone who holds the views she does about immigrants is just perpetuating patriachy)

Do you really see them as better feminists?

Of course
Tony Benn- campaigned constantly for equal rights, put up a plaque in the Hof C to commemorate Emily Wilding Davison in 1911.
Margaret Thatcher-designed and manipulated by male politicians who dumped her when she seemed out of control. Dismissed Greenham Common women as "eccentrics"

It seems to me that what most people need to do is get off social media and stop basing their opinions on what is said on twitter by people who may or may not be trans activists. I don't know any lesbians who have been pressured to have sex with a transwoman, I'm not saying there aren't any, simply that Twitter isn't necessarily real life.

There have been loads of complaining going on wrt lesbians being transphobic for not wanting to sleep with transwomen with 'lady penis' actually, especially on social media.

trisher

More recently
Tony Benn and Margaret Thatcher
Jeremy Corbyn and Pritti Patel (anyone who holds the views she does about immigrants is just perpetuating patriachy)

Do you really see them as better feminists?

More recently
Tony Benn and Margaret Thatcher
Jeremy Corbyn and Pritti Patel (anyone who holds the views she does about immigrants is just perpetuating patriachy)

Thanks. I’ll I’ll look up Henry Brailsford and see what impact he had.

Mollygo

I’m still hunting for men who are better feminists and what impact they have had.

Try Henry Brailsford-founder member of the Men's League for Women's Suffrage, wrote for Votes for Women, supported his wife Jane Brailsford who was a suffragette.
And a woman Gertrude Bell-rich, educated, traveller and explorer trained Lawrence of Arabia and laid the plans for the Middle East but didn't believe women should vote. Quite if she was feminist is debatable. She certainly trail blazed but she didn't support other women.

I didn’t shoehorn anything into anywhere. We're still allowed our own viewpoints. My opinion is that it’s not transphobic for a lesbian not to want a sexual relationship with a transwoman as that would be a heterosexual relationship.
Thank you for the opportunity to say that twice.
You may reiterate your opinion if you wish to do so.

Mollygo

I don’t think it’s transphobic for a lesbian not to want a sexual relationship with a transwoman. Being a lesbian means that you don’t want heterosexual relationships.

I think everyone has the right to decide who they want a sexual relationship with. That is down to personal choice. No need to try to shoehorn hetereosexuality into that point at all.

I don’t think it’s transphobic for a lesbian not to want a sexual relationship with a transwoman. Being a lesbian means that you don’t want heterosexual relationships.

trisher, by 'women' and 'men' do you mean people who present themselves in a particular way, who meet certain stereotypes, or what exactly?
Obviously you don't mean people who have a certain biology.

I’m still hunting for men who are better feminists and what impact they have had.

Feminism has never just applied to women although some choose to see it that way.It passed through a period in the 70s when it chose to identify men as the main problem, but most people who are truly feminists now recognise that it isn't men who are the problem, it is the attitudes and concepts of masculinity, promoted by the patriachy that need to change, and some men are better feminists than some women.

trisher

So now women who don't want to be women have to be because you say so? What sort of feminism is that?

And then if those women are not women any longer, because they choose to be men, does feminism not apply to them?

How are we managing to discuss things on here? It's because words have meanings that don't shape-shift all the time.
Female and male designate sexed biology.

I've only witnessed support from lesbians towards the trans members of their communities.

What do you mean by support?

Do you mean accepting that it is transphobic for a lesbian not to want to have sexual relationships with transwomen?

trisher

Mmm I wonder if Freddy McConnell and the other trans men whohave given birth would agree with that?https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/20/the-dad-who-gave-birth-pregnant-trans-freddy-mcconnell

That's so silly.
I'm sure Freddie doesn't agree but that doesn't mean that the word 'mother' has changed its meaning from 'female person who has given birth' just for Freddie & others who wish it so.
I expect you know that Freddie's court case resulted in a ruling that confirmed this.

Rosie51 we all have the same right to voice our own beliefs and our own point of view.

GagaJo
Oh give it up Rosie. If sex were as rigidly defined as you insist, there would be no variants.
I am SO bored with this 'You can't argue with science' fallacy. It is BS.

And then you say I accept your right to your POV. You don't accept my right to mine.

No point debating with dictators.

Can't see where you've accepted my right to my point of view there? I accept your right to believe what you want to, I just don't happen to believe the same. I'm not the dictator here.

Galaxy

Er I am not sure what that proves to be honest, the gay community is quite divided on this subject. Many are absolutely furious about the denial of sex as a reality.

Yes, just as most women are....and probably men too.

I don't deny it's out there. Just not my experience. Maybe I've been fortunate, but in 3 different areas of the UK where I've had involvement I've only witnessed support from lesbians towards the trans members of their communities.